Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:43 pm

PhillipM wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:48 pm
That's nothing new it's something that's been done for decades, it's been looked at before for turbocharger turbines in motorsport before as well.
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:55 pm
Not really needed for small radial turbines where you have sufficient support from the back disk.

Dove tailed axial turbinw blades are indeed a common application.
Never in the form of this type of application or pressures. So characteristic of Japanese technology (and attention to material detail and quality) and disappointed to hear the "over engineered" response to it. Perhaps it is over-engineered to some other's reliability and durability standards, but not this Honda's! Good to see Honda pushing the envelope like they did during the Golden Era. They will need this durability and piece of mind to utilize this next stage of development.

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:00 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:43 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:48 pm
That's nothing new it's something that's been done for decades, it's been looked at before for turbocharger turbines in motorsport before as well.
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:55 pm
Not really needed for small radial turbines where you have sufficient support from the back disk.

Dove tailed axial turbinw blades are indeed a common application.
Never in the form of this type of application or pressures. So characteristic of Japanese technology (and attention to material detail and quality) and disappointed to hear the "over engineered" response to it. Perhaps it is over-engineered to some other's reliability and durability standards, but not this Honda's! Good to see Honda pushing the envelope like they did during the Golden Era. They will need this durability and piece of mind to utilize this next stage of development.
Hold your horses - first off if you re-read the paragraph the single crystal turbine blades only refer to the aero engine - any association with the F1 turbo is pure speculation.

Secondly - just off the top of my head - the Audi le mans diesels ran hotter exhaust gases than current F1 engines and they got away with normal nickel alloys. I am sure there are many other examples.

As for the bolded text ... well, their reliability has not exactly been stellar in this era has it ?

Edit:
Another example - the Merc one hypercar which uses a F1 derived engine running very close to lambda 1 for emissions reasons and hence hotter than F1 has a "standard" mar247 turbine wheel.
How much TQ does it make though?

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:49 am

Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:00 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:43 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:48 pm
That's nothing new it's something that's been done for decades, it's been looked at before for turbocharger turbines in motorsport before as well.
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:55 pm
Not really needed for small radial turbines where you have sufficient support from the back disk.

Dove tailed axial turbinw blades are indeed a common application.
Never in the form of this type of application or pressures. So characteristic of Japanese technology (and attention to material detail and quality) and disappointed to hear the "over engineered" response to it. Perhaps it is over-engineered to some other's reliability and durability standards, but not this Honda's! Good to see Honda pushing the envelope like they did during the Golden Era. They will need this durability and piece of mind to utilize this next stage of development.
Hold your horses - first off if you re-read the paragraph the single crystal turbine blades only refer to the aero engine - any association with the F1 turbo is pure speculation.

Secondly - just off the top of my head - the Audi le mans diesels ran hotter exhaust gases than current F1 engines and they got away with normal nickel alloys. I am sure there are many other examples.

As for the bolded text ... well, their reliability has not exactly been stellar in this era has it ?

Edit:
Another example - the Merc one hypercar which uses a F1 derived engine running very close to lambda 1 for emissions reasons and hence hotter than F1 has a "standard" mar247 turbine wheel.
Please, we're talking about what Honda has done, not what OTHERS have done in OTHER series. Sounds to me you're jealous of this high-tech! "So what, Audi did this, Toyota did that"...

It comprises two turbines, a smaller high-pressure component with single crystal blades producing lower fuel burn and a larger, low-pressure, counter-rotating turbine that boasts lower weight.
In Honda's diagram, there are two turbos. Which do you suppose gets hot gases and could use some durability insurance?
Image

As for the bolded text ... well, their reliability has not exactly been stellar in this era has it ?
Bingo! So it's not pointless as you say it is. Afterall, it needs to be Alonso-proof.

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:57 am

   
Last edited by roon on Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:05 am

roon wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:57 am
I can't believe they released that CAD image to the public. It reveals their primary flaw in the drivetrain! They are sending all the physical energy to the right wheel, and all the electrical energy to the left wheel. How did Alonso ever keep this thing on the road? Amazed by how Newey still figured out how to make this work. Should I email HQ?

That bombshell aside: Rules dictate single stage wheels at both ends of a common shaft. Packaging mostly dictates centrifugal type devices at both ends, with one exception: Honda's axial(mixed?) compressor of 2015. Which didnt work so well for them.
<unnecessary confrontational comment removed>
There are only red lines going to the wheels. Can't you tell what the color coded Labels and Legend indicate? Besides, this image is not published, it is a composite.

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:18 am

ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:05 am
roon wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:57 am
I can't believe they released that CAD image to the public. It reveals their primary flaw in the drivetrain! They are sending all the physical energy to the right wheel, and all the electrical energy to the left wheel. How did Alonso ever keep this thing on the road? Amazed by how Newey still figured out how to make this work. Should I email HQ?

That bombshell aside: Rules dictate single stage wheels at both ends of a common shaft. Packaging mostly dictates centrifugal type devices at both ends, with one exception: Honda's axial(mixed?) compressor of 2015. Which didnt work so well for them.
You are color blind sir. There are only red lines going to the wheels. Can't you tell what the color coded Labels and Legend indicate? Besides, this image is not published, it is a composite.
Last edited by roon on Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:19 am

<personal stuff removed>
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:49 am

In Honda's diagram, there are two turbos. Which do you suppose gets hot gases and could use some durability insurance?
No there aren't 2 turbos.
You can't read a diagram just as you can't read the paragraph that clearly states single crystal blades are used in the aero engines.
How much TQ does it make though?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:28 am

the Autosport article linked by HPD is in a substantial part completely wrong
that part being written by Scott Mitchel - not anything attributed to Honda

what Mitchel writes in his pretentious and roundabout way amounts to saying that .....
a better turbine puts more air into the ICE and this benefits combustion
(sounding like a view favoured in some posts on this site)

this is wrong
fuelling is fixed by rule - more air than the extreme leaning already used will reduce combustion efficiency
(that's what extreme leaning is - the point where any further leaning reduces combustion efficiency)

a better turbine will of course give more scope for running in electric supercharge and for H generation


btw
ispano6's purported 'Honda's' diagram - what Honda company would that be ?

rogazilla
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by rogazilla » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:19 pm

Disclaimer: No where have the amount of technical knowledge as most on this forum. Bare with me with the following question.

1. Spit turbo concept. On the compressor side obviously cooler. The goal is to compress air and pack more oxygen to feed the Ice. Jet engine also compress air on the inlet and usually has the ability to do this more efficiently because high altitude has thinner air?

2. On the other end, the exhaust runs the 'turbine'? the goal here is allow the exhaust gas to spin it as efficiently as you can. Does this jet concept has any advantage other than being able to handle the heat better?

3. MGU-H converts heat into electricity and is right in between the 2 items above. If the compressor side is easier to spin I assume MGU-H can spend less energy to keep the turbo spools up?

4. Does the any of those items above benefit the MGU-H itself? I assume it is a fancy motor but no idea what's inside a MGU-H.

3jawchuck
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by 3jawchuck » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:00 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:49 am
In Honda's diagram, there are two turbos.....
The rules state only a single turbo (1 turbine, 1 compressor) is allowed.

You don't really understand what you are looking at.
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
--Ernest Hemingway

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:24 pm

Austria is a track at altitude, this turbo upgrade might see benefits over some competitors performing at altitude. Possibly an area Honda Jet could of assisted with.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm

I think this upgrade is to ultimately be able to harvest more energy through the MGU-H, regardless of the engine mode. That this upgrade is setting the groundwork to be able to exploit the extra energy they can harvest by having more "freewheel" mode.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:11 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm
I think this upgrade is to ultimately be able to harvest more energy through the MGU-H, regardless of the engine mode. That this upgrade is setting the groundwork to be able to exploit the extra energy they can harvest by having more "freewheel" mode.
What is "freewheel mode"?

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:35 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:11 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm
I think this upgrade is to ultimately be able to harvest more energy through the MGU-H, regardless of the engine mode. That this upgrade is setting the groundwork to be able to exploit the extra energy they can harvest by having more "freewheel" mode.
What is "freewheel mode"?
""freewheel mode"" as in having wastegates wide open and having the turbo rely on the MGU-H to operate and relieve backpressure from the engine.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:38 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:35 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:11 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm
I think this upgrade is to ultimately be able to harvest more energy through the MGU-H, regardless of the engine mode. That this upgrade is setting the groundwork to be able to exploit the extra energy they can harvest by having more "freewheel" mode.
What is "freewheel mode"?
""freewheel mode"" as in having wastegates wide open and having the turbo rely on the MGU-H to operate and relieve backpressure from the engine.
In a normal engine, boost pressure and back pressure are linked, like downforce and drag you can't have one without the other. The MGU-H let's you temporarily sever this link. Both boost without back pressure, and back pressure without boost is possible with the MGU-H. Especially since you have fine granular control of both intake bypass and exhaust bypass.

I reckon that the current Honda engine philosophy has a lot of untapped potential. As it stands their next big step is out of sequence with the others. The next few races will be rather frustrating, as the performance will remain relatively similar until ~Silverstone.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee