Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
TNTHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by TNTHead » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:19 pm

Snorked wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:54 pm
 Honda's technical director Toyoji Tanabe explains:
We have always tried to introduce various technologies from the all-Honda Research Laboratory at All-Honda in order to boost the performance of the F1, but one of the great achievements is the aircraft engine development division in the turbocharger section (Honda I was able to improve the efficiency by putting the technology of the jet section) into the turbo developed jointly with IHI, in the form of putting the technology of Honda. "

 ICE (internal combustion engine) Also, the company has introduced fine details and has optimized it in line with the new turbo. The effect obtained by this is only a few kW in terms of maximum power. However, as the efficiency of the turbo increases, it will be possible to increase the amount of power generation by turning more MGU-H (*) connected there and to increase the boost pressure of the intake air sent to the ICE.

※ MGU-H = Motor Generator Unit-Heat. A device that regenerates thermal energy from exhaust gas.

"The power is not 10 kW or so, but it is not such a level, but by distributing the portion where the efficiency of the turbo is increased, not only the turbo but also the MGU-H will be able to make use of ICE. The overall performance has been improved, which leads to a higher performance in the final than the peak power in qualifying. It is not flashy, but it can be expected that it will be a car that will be defeated on the track in the finals
https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/smart/c ... 21/post_8/
If this spec is the first one with the IHI partnership materialised, it might be a big moment: is their development really going into the right direction! And is there really an efficiency gain.

If that is the case the power output might indeed come to terms with Mercedes and Ferrari. Hopefully after next winter.

Btw i dont buy that Ferrari PU is the benchmark now, only because of highest top speeds. Mercedes with their high downforce setup are hiding their pu performance. They said during wintertesting that they completely redesigned the engine and had significant efficiency gains. So Merc is still the benchmark if you ask me.
To back this claim it would be helpful to know the relation between power output and downforce / drag. Then you could make a better comparison between the power units

sn809
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by sn809 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:05 pm

loner wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:48 pm
Bill wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:48 pm
Mercedes according to Lewis their update only brought realibity not additional power so they is nothing to laugh at.
did Mercs claimed the collaboration of Honda jet crew ?
Tanabe talked big for what ? 10 HP .. did Honda felt the need to promote and advertise their plane suddenly in the F1 world ?!!
however regardless this 10 hp figure if they will be able to run the PU in mode 7 for longer time after this update i will applause them.
I disagree, there is no harm in promoting Honda Jet but this also shows their commitment and that they are going all out- Japanese style.

I do agree that this should lead to better race pace with hopefully less fuel saving and better performance overall even though Quali was not great. It might take a race to get mapping right though so lets see what happens at the next race for a real test of the engine.

hollus
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hollus » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:05 am

Ferrari... Mercedes... Renault... slower than...
Those posts ate gone.
Honda PU is the topic of this thread.
Thank you.
It is not white, it is not black, it is probably gray.

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by HPD » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:51 pm

The 'Spec 3' engine introduced at last weekend's French Grand Prix featured upgrades mainly around the turbo and the internal combustion engine.

Honda's F1 research and development personnel at Sakura have been working with their jet-engine counterparts for two years, and this collaboration paved the way for a major breakthrough with the reliability of Honda's MGU-H in for 2018's Spec 3 - which was introduced late last year.

Yasuaki Asaki, who heads up the Sakura side of the F1 operations, then suggested during a meeting of Honda bosses that a collaboration on the turbine side would also be beneficial.

"The jet engine itself is completely different," Honda F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe told Autosport. "But the turbocharger and MGU-H is kind of like the turbine in the jet.

"It uses high-speed rotation, and needs some aero design for the turbine.

"I think there is very common technology there."

Autosport understands that part of the inspiration taken from Honda's HF120 jet engine for the F1 project is a change in the design of the blades inside the components.

"If you're only working for F1 naturally your focus will be just inside this world," Honda F1 managing director Masashi Yamamoto told Autosport.

"We can have a different point of view from other areas, other people, have their advice.

"This time it was the aerodynamics area of the turbine.

"That new point of view give us the essence of some improvement."

The HF120 powers the award-winning HA-420 HondaJet, a six-seat light business jet, and operates in intense conditions at high altitude.

It comprises two turbines, a smaller high-pressure component with single crystal blades producing lower fuel burn and a larger, low-pressure, counter-rotating turbine that boasts lower weight.

With Honda introducing its Spec 3 engine for the eighth race of the 21-event season, the prospect exists for further development this year at the cost of grid penalties.

Tanabe said that the earlier-than-conventional introduction was "kind of according to plan" but also influenced by the "long-term" nature of the collaboration with the jet engine research and development team.

"It takes a long time," he said. "It's a bit difficult to say 'next month [it will be ready]'.

"We decided on the Honda side that we were ready, discussed with the teams which would be the best timing and decided to apply it [in France]."

Honda had already outlined that the new engine would not trigger a dramatic performance step, even though its dyno testing has registered a small power increase.

But it was satisfied with the reliability and calibration of its upgraded engine in France, and that should give it the platform to push for more power with subsequent upgrades.

"If you have a high-efficiency turbocharger, you can share that benefit to the ICE side and also the MGU-H side," said Tanabe.

"Especially in this Spec 3 development we have a high efficiency turbocharger.

"Then we can optimise the engine's total balance of performance.

"You can get more efficient energy from the turbocharger, and we can share it across the engine in terms of energy management."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14435 ... 1-upgrades
Image

Image

maguetox
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by maguetox » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:14 pm

HPD wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:51 pm

It comprises two turbines, a smaller high-pressure component with single crystal blades producing lower fuel burn and a larger, low-pressure, counter-rotating turbine that boasts lower weight.

With Honda introducing its Spec 3 engine for the eighth race of the 21-event season, the prospect exists for further development this year at the cost of grid penalties.

But it was satisfied with the reliability and calibration of its upgraded engine in France, and that should give it the platform to push for more power with subsequent upgrades.

"If you have a high-efficiency turbocharger, you can share that benefit to the ICE side and also the MGU-H side," said Tanabe.

"Especially in this Spec 3 development we have a high efficiency turbocharger.

"Then we can optimise the engine's total balance of performance.

"You can get more efficient energy from the turbocharger, and we can share it across the engine in terms of energy management."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14435 ... 1-upgrades
https://aviationweek.com/site-files/avi ... ngine3.jpg

https://www.gehonda.com/_/img/engine/ex ... _color.png
Of the whole news, the one that most caught my atention was the single crystal blade, here is a description of what this is:

https://www.instituteofmaking.org.uk/ma ... bine-blade

"Jet engine turbine blades need to be extremely durable to withstand the punishment they receive during operation of the engine. Along with the massive mechanical loadings they experience, they need to withstand extremely high temperatures. Needless to say, failure of such a part in an aircraft could be catastrophic. This turbine blade has two distinguishing material features. Firstly, it is made of a superalloy, which has superior mechanical strength and creep resistance at high temperatures, good corrosion and oxidation resistance compared to normal metals and alloys. Secondly, it is formed out of a single metal crystal, a structure which gives the blade outstanding strength at high temperatures. Most bulk metals are not one big crystal: they are composed of many tiny crystallites called grains. The boundaries between these grains generally increase the strength of a metal, however at high temperatures they provide a way for the metal to deform over time (called creep). Creating a turbine blade as a single crystal means it does not have any grain boundaries, and it is therefore intrinsically stronger at high temperatures than polycrystalline metals. It is this property that has allowed turbine jet engines to be operated reliably at very high temperatures which increases the efficiency and safety of the engine. Modern turbine jet engines are more efficient engines on the planet."

PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PhillipM » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:48 pm

That's nothing new it's something that's been done for decades, it's been looked at before for turbocharger turbines in motorsport before as well.

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:55 pm

Not really needed for small radial turbines where you have sufficient support from the back disk.

Dove tailed axial turbinw blades are indeed a common application.
How much TQ does it make though?

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:43 pm

PhillipM wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:48 pm
That's nothing new it's something that's been done for decades, it's been looked at before for turbocharger turbines in motorsport before as well.
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:55 pm
Not really needed for small radial turbines where you have sufficient support from the back disk.

Dove tailed axial turbinw blades are indeed a common application.
Never in the form of this type of application or pressures. So characteristic of Japanese technology (and attention to material detail and quality) and disappointed to hear the "over engineered" response to it. Perhaps it is over-engineered to some other's reliability and durability standards, but not this Honda's! Good to see Honda pushing the envelope like they did during the Golden Era. They will need this durability and piece of mind to utilize this next stage of development.

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:00 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:43 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:48 pm
That's nothing new it's something that's been done for decades, it's been looked at before for turbocharger turbines in motorsport before as well.
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:55 pm
Not really needed for small radial turbines where you have sufficient support from the back disk.

Dove tailed axial turbinw blades are indeed a common application.
Never in the form of this type of application or pressures. So characteristic of Japanese technology (and attention to material detail and quality) and disappointed to hear the "over engineered" response to it. Perhaps it is over-engineered to some other's reliability and durability standards, but not this Honda's! Good to see Honda pushing the envelope like they did during the Golden Era. They will need this durability and piece of mind to utilize this next stage of development.
Hold your horses - first off if you re-read the paragraph the single crystal turbine blades only refer to the aero engine - any association with the F1 turbo is pure speculation.

Secondly - just off the top of my head - the Audi le mans diesels ran hotter exhaust gases than current F1 engines and they got away with normal nickel alloys. I am sure there are many other examples.

As for the bolded text ... well, their reliability has not exactly been stellar in this era has it ?

Edit:
Another example - the Merc one hypercar which uses a F1 derived engine running very close to lambda 1 for emissions reasons and hence hotter than F1 has a "standard" mar247 turbine wheel.
How much TQ does it make though?

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:49 am

Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:00 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:43 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:48 pm
That's nothing new it's something that's been done for decades, it's been looked at before for turbocharger turbines in motorsport before as well.
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:55 pm
Not really needed for small radial turbines where you have sufficient support from the back disk.

Dove tailed axial turbinw blades are indeed a common application.
Never in the form of this type of application or pressures. So characteristic of Japanese technology (and attention to material detail and quality) and disappointed to hear the "over engineered" response to it. Perhaps it is over-engineered to some other's reliability and durability standards, but not this Honda's! Good to see Honda pushing the envelope like they did during the Golden Era. They will need this durability and piece of mind to utilize this next stage of development.
Hold your horses - first off if you re-read the paragraph the single crystal turbine blades only refer to the aero engine - any association with the F1 turbo is pure speculation.

Secondly - just off the top of my head - the Audi le mans diesels ran hotter exhaust gases than current F1 engines and they got away with normal nickel alloys. I am sure there are many other examples.

As for the bolded text ... well, their reliability has not exactly been stellar in this era has it ?

Edit:
Another example - the Merc one hypercar which uses a F1 derived engine running very close to lambda 1 for emissions reasons and hence hotter than F1 has a "standard" mar247 turbine wheel.
Please, we're talking about what Honda has done, not what OTHERS have done in OTHER series. Sounds to me you're jealous of this high-tech! "So what, Audi did this, Toyota did that"...

It comprises two turbines, a smaller high-pressure component with single crystal blades producing lower fuel burn and a larger, low-pressure, counter-rotating turbine that boasts lower weight.
In Honda's diagram, there are two turbos. Which do you suppose gets hot gases and could use some durability insurance?
Image

As for the bolded text ... well, their reliability has not exactly been stellar in this era has it ?
Bingo! So it's not pointless as you say it is. Afterall, it needs to be Alonso-proof.

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:57 am

   
Last edited by roon on Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:05 am

roon wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:57 am
I can't believe they released that CAD image to the public. It reveals their primary flaw in the drivetrain! They are sending all the physical energy to the right wheel, and all the electrical energy to the left wheel. How did Alonso ever keep this thing on the road? Amazed by how Newey still figured out how to make this work. Should I email HQ?

That bombshell aside: Rules dictate single stage wheels at both ends of a common shaft. Packaging mostly dictates centrifugal type devices at both ends, with one exception: Honda's axial(mixed?) compressor of 2015. Which didnt work so well for them.
<unnecessary confrontational comment removed>
There are only red lines going to the wheels. Can't you tell what the color coded Labels and Legend indicate? Besides, this image is not published, it is a composite.

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:18 am

ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:05 am
roon wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:57 am
I can't believe they released that CAD image to the public. It reveals their primary flaw in the drivetrain! They are sending all the physical energy to the right wheel, and all the electrical energy to the left wheel. How did Alonso ever keep this thing on the road? Amazed by how Newey still figured out how to make this work. Should I email HQ?

That bombshell aside: Rules dictate single stage wheels at both ends of a common shaft. Packaging mostly dictates centrifugal type devices at both ends, with one exception: Honda's axial(mixed?) compressor of 2015. Which didnt work so well for them.
You are color blind sir. There are only red lines going to the wheels. Can't you tell what the color coded Labels and Legend indicate? Besides, this image is not published, it is a composite.
Last edited by roon on Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:19 am

<personal stuff removed>
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:49 am

In Honda's diagram, there are two turbos. Which do you suppose gets hot gases and could use some durability insurance?
No there aren't 2 turbos.
You can't read a diagram just as you can't read the paragraph that clearly states single crystal blades are used in the aero engines.
How much TQ does it make though?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:28 am

the Autosport article linked by HPD is in a substantial part completely wrong
that part being written by Scott Mitchel - not anything attributed to Honda

what Mitchel writes in his pretentious and roundabout way amounts to saying that .....
a better turbine puts more air into the ICE and this benefits combustion
(sounding like a view favoured in some posts on this site)

this is wrong
fuelling is fixed by rule - more air than the extreme leaning already used will reduce combustion efficiency
(that's what extreme leaning is - the point where any further leaning reduces combustion efficiency)

a better turbine will of course give more scope for running in electric supercharge and for H generation


btw
ispano6's purported 'Honda's' diagram - what Honda company would that be ?