Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:47 am

I think there's a single compressor outlet. It's the charge cooler outlet that splits the flow.

Why would you have a twin compressor outlet anyway ?
How much TQ does it make though?

dxpetrov
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dxpetrov » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:38 am

CH via f1.com:
"Reliability has been strong – we still have all three engines available to use (per driver). They have only introduced new engines based on performance increments."
:o

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:25 pm

dxpetrov wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:38 am
CH via f1.com:
"Reliability has been strong – we still have all three engines available to use (per driver). They have only introduced new engines based on performance increments."
:o
"Reliability has been strong?" Between 4 drivers so far they used 15 ICE, 14 TC, 14 H, 14 K. And how can a driver still have three engines available to use?.

dxpetrov
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dxpetrov » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:10 pm

Seriously? They still have first two specs available to use during Fridays.

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:28 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:47 am
I think there's a single compressor outlet. It's the charge cooler outlet that splits the flow.

Why would you have a twin compressor outlet anyway ?
Same reasons they use two turbine inlets, one being: packaging. There is one intercooler per side. Feeding each individually would reduce charge pipe length, volume and weight. It could be that they simply use a wye pipe somewhere, but the photos this year show two similarly treated (two white o-rings) large-diameter (air-handling) pipes emanating from behind the oil tank, as well as individual charge cooler returns per bank. I don't think they will have positioned a wye pipe in such a space constrained area (behind the oil tank and compressor). I think the volute has two outlets.

Stef
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Stef » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:59 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:25 pm
dxpetrov wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:38 am
CH via f1.com:
"Reliability has been strong – we still have all three engines available to use (per driver). They have only introduced new engines based on performance increments."
:o
"Reliability has been strong?" Between 4 drivers so far they used 15 ICE, 14 TC, 14 H, 14 K. And how can a driver still have three engines available to use?.
The engine were not changed rcause they broke, they are still usable

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:36 pm

Stef wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:59 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:25 pm
dxpetrov wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:38 am
CH via f1.com:
"Reliability has been strong – we still have all three engines available to use (per driver). They have only introduced new engines based on performance increments."
:o
"Reliability has been strong?" Between 4 drivers so far they used 15 ICE, 14 TC, 14 H, 14 K. And how can a driver still have three engines available to use?.
The engine were not changed rcause they broke, they are still usable
One Toto Rosso driver is on his 5th ICE, The other is on his 4th ICE. Do you mean to says they can use other than the current one and the last one that had been replaced?.

Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sieper » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:01 pm

Theoratically. Of course they wont as packaging will likely have changed with each spec.plus power gains that you throw out the door. But If push comes to shove they can use them on fridays, and even on race day should that incredibly unlikely event turn out a reality.

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:39 pm

Notice how the left turbine exit is higher than the right exit, compared to the ICE. Must look like this:

Image

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 pm

roon wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:28 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:47 am
I think there's a single compressor outlet. It's the charge cooler outlet that splits the flow.

Why would you have a twin compressor outlet anyway ?
Same reasons they use two turbine inlets, one being: packaging. There is one intercooler per side. Feeding each individually would reduce charge pipe length, volume and weight. It could be that they simply use a wye pipe somewhere, but the photos this year show two similarly treated (two white o-rings) large-diameter (air-handling) pipes emanating from behind the oil tank, as well as individual charge cooler returns per bank. I don't think they will have positioned a wye pipe in such a space constrained area (behind the oil tank and compressor). I think the volute has two outlets.
But having twin outlets would have the opposite effect of all you have said:

First off, instead of one single diameter you would have 2 diameters that must be about 70% of the single diameter. This means that the surface area increases (by about 41%) so weight and pressure drop increase too. Moreover, the hoop stress in the duct is proportional to the diameter, so you can't even halve the thickness either. How can a single outlet pipe going to the charge cooler and then a y pipe coming out of the charge cooler and into the plenums be harder to package ?
How much TQ does it make though?

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:13 pm

I think these are the first pictures that clearly show the compressor inlet vane control ring and lever. These appear to be TiN coated, most likely for wear reduction.
How much TQ does it make though?

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:55 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 pm
having twin outlets would have the opposite effect of all you have said
A crossover pipe is heavier than the absence of a crossover pipe. A crossover pipe takes up more space than the absence of a crossover pipe. Primarily I would consider it for packaging. No bulkhead accommodation. Symmetry. Equal length runs from compressor to each cylinder.

Regardless. What do you think of the photo evidence?

Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 pm
How can a single outlet pipe going to the charge cooler and then a y pipe coming out of the charge cooler and into the plenums be harder to package ?
RB10-RB15 had/has two intercoolers, one per side pod. Why rejoin the charge pipes before or after the intercoolers in such an arrangement? Photos from the Renault years show two charge pipes, one per side of the car spanning the engine and feeding its own intercooler. RB may have requested Honda to maintain this layout with the front compressor.

Capharol
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Capharol » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:59 pm

gonna post it here, but not sure if its right.....
a small story on the dyno at Honda (Sakura & Milton Keynes)

although its more specific testing for track by track

https://en.hondaracingf1.com/insights/W ... eDyno.html
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:33 am

roon wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:55 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 pm
having twin outlets would have the opposite effect of all you have said
A crossover pipe is heavier than the absence of a crossover pipe. A crossover pipe takes up more space than the absence of a crossover pipe. Primarily I would consider it for packaging. No bulkhead accommodation. Symmetry. Equal length runs from compressor to each cylinder.

Regardless. What do you think of the photo evidence?

Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 pm
How can a single outlet pipe going to the charge cooler and then a y pipe coming out of the charge cooler and into the plenums be harder to package ?
RB10-RB15 had/has two intercoolers, one per side pod. Why rejoin the charge pipes before or after the intercoolers in such an arrangement? Photos from the Renault years show two charge pipes, one per side of the car spanning the engine and feeding its own intercooler. RB may have requested Honda to maintain this layout with the front compressor.
I dont know what you call a crossover pipe but you proposed 2 compressor outlets which would add rather than eliminate pipes ? Whatever pipe you would eliminate with 2 compressor outlets you can most definitely eliminate with a single outlet.

As for the photo evidence, the first picture definitely shows the compressor outlet but in the second picture there is no second compressor outlet.

Do you have pictures of the 2 RB intercoolers ? They might have a 2 stage intercooler rather than two separate intercoolers.
How much TQ does it make though?

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:22 am

Mudflap wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:33 am
you proposed 2 compressor outlets which would add rather than eliminate pipes ?
Eliminate. There are two intercoolers. One per sidepod. To connect these two intercoolers in-series involves adding a pipe. Operating them in parallel avoids this.

Mudflap wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:33 am
the second picture there is no second compressor outlet.
Demarcated with the orange arrow showing compressor outflow. Second image below. It is of apparently the same diameter as the left-side outlet, which you acknowledge to be an outlet. It's flange is treated the same way, with two white o-rings. Do you have another suggestion for its purpose?

Image

Image

Mudflap wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:33 am
Do you have pictures of the 2 RB intercoolers?
Most photos of RB cars from the past six seasons with engine cover off will show the thicker-core a:a intercoolers mounted below the thinner liquid radiators. These are mirrored about the car, one per sidepod. Compare to Force India who dedicate an entire sidepod to one a:a intercooler. RB, Mac and Renault altenatively fill half a sidepod on both sides.
They do this presumably to balance weight and aero loads, as well as optimizing flow to both cylinder banks.

RB15
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... e-de-1.jpg

RB13
https://f1grandprix.motorionline.com/do ... -00035.jpg

RB12
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... prbr32.jpg
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp ... -rb-12.jpg

RB10
https://picolio.auto123.com/art-images/ ... inline.jpg

2018 plenum. Inlets point away from CL, toward outboard intercoolers. Unlikely to be sequential/series flow.
https://i0.wp.com/cdn-3.motorsport.com/ ... =696&ssl=1

https://cdn-2.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... e-ch-1.jpg