Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
muramasa
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by muramasa » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:39 am

I'm inclined to think it's twin outlet for now, as for the right compressor pipe to be placed at that proximity to the compressor at that angle, looks like it has to come out of the compressor directly there, otherwise branch pipe must be bent very steeply there at almost impossible angle, or thrust through the oil tank which looks quite unlikely. Compared to the 2018 PU below, which had single compressor outlet on the left, seems it's quite obvious. Also the left outlet pipe looks slimmer than the main pipe of 2018's single outlet too.

btw Honda engineer said in japanese magazine at the end of last year that switching to separate pipe config for 2018 was to accommodate requirement from STR chassis as STR had separate intercooler on both sidepods whereas mclaren was single intercooler concept, meaning they didnt have much time to alter and design the compressor and piping for the separate intercooler config for 2018. So making it twin outlet for this year seems natural evolution.

Image

Pyrone89
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Pyrone89 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:41 am

On the Verstappen forum Schummie01 (who is trusted over there, but I cant verify it) says Honda have a special cooling fluid that is ahead of the competition allowing them to detune less in warm weather. Maybe Wazari can confirm this

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:13 am

Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:41 am
On the Verstappen forum Schummie01 (who is trusted over there, but I cant verify it) says Honda have a special cooling fluid that is ahead of the competition allowing them to detune less in warm weather. Maybe Wazari can confirm this
There may be something to that. Composition of coolant is seemingly unregulated barring one entry:

7.6 Cooling systems :
The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the charge air, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the
normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.14.

5.14 basically says only put air, crankcase air, and fuel via the DIs into the combustion chamber.

honda_fun
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by honda_fun » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:07 am

Image
I came to think that the twin outlet was more right after I watched this photograph.

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:51 am

Yeah, they're both visible there as well. I assembled some of the available photos and annotated another, below.

Right outlet:
Image

Left outlet:
Image

Similar to what Audi did with the R18:

Image

Image

Image

Image

In the photo directly above, imagine a longer connecting shaft and an MGUH in between the two halves, and you'll likely end up with what the RA619H has--dual inlet turbine, dual outlet compressor.

Pyrone89
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Pyrone89 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:20 pm

How about using Torro Rosso as a testing bed again?

Hungary they get spec 4, RBR in Spa or Monza.

In Sochi they run the special Japan mapping (going full out for home crowd).

In Abu Dhabi they run the concept 2020 version, and they can then also further use it in the tyre test after the race. This would give them a head start on 2020.

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:48 pm

Is this new information? Honda has shown this since the beginning of the season.
Dual inlet, dual outlet, split turbo physically connected and it's orientation.
Image

Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wazari » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:23 pm

Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:41 am
On the Verstappen forum Schummie01 (who is trusted over there, but I cant verify it) says Honda have a special cooling fluid that is ahead of the competition allowing them to detune less in warm weather. Maybe Wazari can confirm this
I don't think so. Honda does use a "waterless" coolant formulated for them but I would think the other manufacturers are all using a similar coolant so I don't think it would that far ahead of the others if at all.
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.

Pyrone89
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Pyrone89 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:54 pm

Wazari wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:23 pm
Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:41 am
On the Verstappen forum Schummie01 (who is trusted over there, but I cant verify it) says Honda have a special cooling fluid that is ahead of the competition allowing them to detune less in warm weather. Maybe Wazari can confirm this
I don't think so. Honda does use a "waterless" coolant formulated for them but I would think the other manufacturers are all using a similar coolant so I don't think it would that far ahead of the others if at all.
Thx Wazari,

Hope things are going better. If I may ask a second question: how do likely do you think the mentioned plan is to use TR as a testimg bed for 2020 specs during the last races? And what do you make of the image posted above regarding dual inlet and outlet turbo’s?

daniellammers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by daniellammers » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:34 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:30 am
New spec incoming, have any of you noticed Honda has no reservations giving money shots of the power unit once a new one is rumored to be around the corner.

Interesting about that gap between the exhaust and bodywork, and how it tapers down. I know what that does. :twisted:

If this keeps up Verstappen is going to know what Marquez in Moto GP has been feeling the last couple of years.

This power unit has taken a nice step forward, it's so beautifully constructed. The oil tank =D>
I'm a total engine-noob, can you highlight the oil tank in the Honda-PU for me?
You won't catch me driving a race car that I have built.

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muramasa
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by muramasa » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:20 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:48 pm
Is this new information? Honda has shown this since the beginning of the season.
Dual inlet, dual outlet, split turbo physically connected and it's orientation.
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f8e4/1 ... h409zg.jpg
At one glance you can instantly tell that that thing does not work. Graphical materials for this sort of things are just casual diagram, same as tube maps, anatomical explanation drawing of organs etc, not something to take serious about.
Telling orientation of turbine rotation is so easy, just look at its body will do.

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:29 pm

muramasa wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:20 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:48 pm
Is this new information? Honda has shown this since the beginning of the season.
Dual inlet, dual outlet, split turbo physically connected and it's orientation.
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f8e4/1 ... h409zg.jpg
At one glance you can instantly tell that that thing does not work. Graphical materials for this sort of things are just casual diagram, same as tube maps, anatomical explanation drawing of organs etc, not something to take serious about.
Telling orientation of turbine rotation is so easy, just look at its body will do.
Obviously, they are not showing exact details. All I'm saying is this information is not new. Dual outlet and dual inlet that is.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:17 pm

daniellammers wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:34 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:30 am
New spec incoming, have any of you noticed Honda has no reservations giving money shots of the power unit once a new one is rumored to be around the corner.

Interesting about that gap between the exhaust and bodywork, and how it tapers down. I know what that does. :twisted:

If this keeps up Verstappen is going to know what Marquez in Moto GP has been feeling the last couple of years.

This power unit has taken a nice step forward, it's so beautifully constructed. The oil tank =D>
I'm a total engine-noob, can you highlight the oil tank in the Honda-PU for me?
It's at the front of the ICE, it is moulded around the compressor. Compared to the design they had on there 2 years ago this is light years ahead.

Image

Here's a good shot.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:56 pm

roon wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:22 am
Mudflap wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:33 am
you proposed 2 compressor outlets which would add rather than eliminate pipes ?
Demarcated with the orange arrow showing compressor outflow. Second image below. It is of apparently the same diameter as the left-side outlet, which you acknowledge to be an outlet. It's flange is treated the same way, with two white o-rings. Do you have another suggestion for its purpose?

Most photos of RB cars from the past six seasons with engine cover off will show the thicker-core a:a intercoolers mounted below the thinner liquid radiators. These are mirrored about the car, one per sidepod. Compare to Force India who dedicate an entire sidepod to one a:a intercooler. RB, Mac and Renault altenatively fill half a sidepod on both sides.
They do this presumably to balance weight and aero loads, as well as optimizing flow to both cylinder banks.

RB15
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... e-de-1.jpg

RB13
https://f1grandprix.motorionline.com/do ... -00035.jpg

RB12
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... prbr32.jpg
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp ... -rb-12.jpg

RB10
https://picolio.auto123.com/art-images/ ... inline.jpg

2018 plenum. Inlets point away from CL, toward outboard intercoolers. Unlikely to be sequential/series flow.
https://i0.wp.com/cdn-3.motorsport.com/ ... =696&ssl=1

https://cdn-2.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... e-ch-1.jpg
You are right, you've convinced me.

I do struggle to see what the advantage of splitting the charge air cooling for the 2 banks is though..
How much TQ does it make though?

pierrre
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by pierrre » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:57 pm

looks like honda is using an air to air intercooler rather than charge cooled like on the ferrari and mercedes amg..maybe that is why they have resorted to two outlets on the compressor wheel. interesting that single turbo has two inlets for the turbine and outlet for the compressor, bit like having twin turbo