Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:39 pm

Notice how the left turbine exit is higher than the right exit, compared to the ICE. Must look like this:

Image

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 pm

roon wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:28 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:47 am
I think there's a single compressor outlet. It's the charge cooler outlet that splits the flow.

Why would you have a twin compressor outlet anyway ?
Same reasons they use two turbine inlets, one being: packaging. There is one intercooler per side. Feeding each individually would reduce charge pipe length, volume and weight. It could be that they simply use a wye pipe somewhere, but the photos this year show two similarly treated (two white o-rings) large-diameter (air-handling) pipes emanating from behind the oil tank, as well as individual charge cooler returns per bank. I don't think they will have positioned a wye pipe in such a space constrained area (behind the oil tank and compressor). I think the volute has two outlets.
But having twin outlets would have the opposite effect of all you have said:

First off, instead of one single diameter you would have 2 diameters that must be about 70% of the single diameter. This means that the surface area increases (by about 41%) so weight and pressure drop increase too. Moreover, the hoop stress in the duct is proportional to the diameter, so you can't even halve the thickness either. How can a single outlet pipe going to the charge cooler and then a y pipe coming out of the charge cooler and into the plenums be harder to package ?
How much TQ does it make though?

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:13 pm

I think these are the first pictures that clearly show the compressor inlet vane control ring and lever. These appear to be TiN coated, most likely for wear reduction.
How much TQ does it make though?

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:55 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 pm
having twin outlets would have the opposite effect of all you have said
A crossover pipe is heavier than the absence of a crossover pipe. A crossover pipe takes up more space than the absence of a crossover pipe. Primarily I would consider it for packaging. No bulkhead accommodation. Symmetry. Equal length runs from compressor to each cylinder.

Regardless. What do you think of the photo evidence?

Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 pm
How can a single outlet pipe going to the charge cooler and then a y pipe coming out of the charge cooler and into the plenums be harder to package ?
RB10-RB15 had/has two intercoolers, one per side pod. Why rejoin the charge pipes before or after the intercoolers in such an arrangement? Photos from the Renault years show two charge pipes, one per side of the car spanning the engine and feeding its own intercooler. RB may have requested Honda to maintain this layout with the front compressor.

Capharol
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Capharol » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:59 pm

gonna post it here, but not sure if its right.....
a small story on the dyno at Honda (Sakura & Milton Keynes)

although its more specific testing for track by track

https://en.hondaracingf1.com/insights/W ... eDyno.html
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:33 am

roon wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:55 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 pm
having twin outlets would have the opposite effect of all you have said
A crossover pipe is heavier than the absence of a crossover pipe. A crossover pipe takes up more space than the absence of a crossover pipe. Primarily I would consider it for packaging. No bulkhead accommodation. Symmetry. Equal length runs from compressor to each cylinder.

Regardless. What do you think of the photo evidence?

Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 pm
How can a single outlet pipe going to the charge cooler and then a y pipe coming out of the charge cooler and into the plenums be harder to package ?
RB10-RB15 had/has two intercoolers, one per side pod. Why rejoin the charge pipes before or after the intercoolers in such an arrangement? Photos from the Renault years show two charge pipes, one per side of the car spanning the engine and feeding its own intercooler. RB may have requested Honda to maintain this layout with the front compressor.
I dont know what you call a crossover pipe but you proposed 2 compressor outlets which would add rather than eliminate pipes ? Whatever pipe you would eliminate with 2 compressor outlets you can most definitely eliminate with a single outlet.

As for the photo evidence, the first picture definitely shows the compressor outlet but in the second picture there is no second compressor outlet.

Do you have pictures of the 2 RB intercoolers ? They might have a 2 stage intercooler rather than two separate intercoolers.
How much TQ does it make though?

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:22 am

Mudflap wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:33 am
you proposed 2 compressor outlets which would add rather than eliminate pipes ?
Eliminate. There are two intercoolers. One per sidepod. To connect these two intercoolers in-series involves adding a pipe. Operating them in parallel avoids this.

Mudflap wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:33 am
the second picture there is no second compressor outlet.
Demarcated with the orange arrow showing compressor outflow. Second image below. It is of apparently the same diameter as the left-side outlet, which you acknowledge to be an outlet. It's flange is treated the same way, with two white o-rings. Do you have another suggestion for its purpose?

Image

Image

Mudflap wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:33 am
Do you have pictures of the 2 RB intercoolers?
Most photos of RB cars from the past six seasons with engine cover off will show the thicker-core a:a intercoolers mounted below the thinner liquid radiators. These are mirrored about the car, one per sidepod. Compare to Force India who dedicate an entire sidepod to one a:a intercooler. RB, Mac and Renault altenatively fill half a sidepod on both sides.
They do this presumably to balance weight and aero loads, as well as optimizing flow to both cylinder banks.

RB15
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... e-de-1.jpg

RB13
https://f1grandprix.motorionline.com/do ... -00035.jpg

RB12
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... prbr32.jpg
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp ... -rb-12.jpg

RB10
https://picolio.auto123.com/art-images/ ... inline.jpg

2018 plenum. Inlets point away from CL, toward outboard intercoolers. Unlikely to be sequential/series flow.
https://i0.wp.com/cdn-3.motorsport.com/ ... =696&ssl=1

https://cdn-2.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... e-ch-1.jpg

muramasa
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by muramasa » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:39 am

I'm inclined to think it's twin outlet for now, as for the right compressor pipe to be placed at that proximity to the compressor at that angle, looks like it has to come out of the compressor directly there, otherwise branch pipe must be bent very steeply there at almost impossible angle, or thrust through the oil tank which looks quite unlikely. Compared to the 2018 PU below, which had single compressor outlet on the left, seems it's quite obvious. Also the left outlet pipe looks slimmer than the main pipe of 2018's single outlet too.

btw Honda engineer said in japanese magazine at the end of last year that switching to separate pipe config for 2018 was to accommodate requirement from STR chassis as STR had separate intercooler on both sidepods whereas mclaren was single intercooler concept, meaning they didnt have much time to alter and design the compressor and piping for the separate intercooler config for 2018. So making it twin outlet for this year seems natural evolution.

Image

Pyrone89
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Pyrone89 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:41 am

On the Verstappen forum Schummie01 (who is trusted over there, but I cant verify it) says Honda have a special cooling fluid that is ahead of the competition allowing them to detune less in warm weather. Maybe Wazari can confirm this

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:13 am

Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:41 am
On the Verstappen forum Schummie01 (who is trusted over there, but I cant verify it) says Honda have a special cooling fluid that is ahead of the competition allowing them to detune less in warm weather. Maybe Wazari can confirm this
There may be something to that. Composition of coolant is seemingly unregulated barring one entry:

7.6 Cooling systems :
The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the charge air, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the
normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.14.

5.14 basically says only put air, crankcase air, and fuel via the DIs into the combustion chamber.

honda_fun
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by honda_fun » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:07 am

Image
I came to think that the twin outlet was more right after I watched this photograph.

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:51 am

Yeah, they're both visible there as well. I assembled some of the available photos and annotated another, below.

Right outlet:
Image

Left outlet:
Image

Similar to what Audi did with the R18:

Image

Image

Image

Image

In the photo directly above, imagine a longer connecting shaft and an MGUH in between the two halves, and you'll likely end up with what the RA619H has--dual inlet turbine, dual outlet compressor.

Pyrone89
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Pyrone89 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:20 pm

How about using Torro Rosso as a testing bed again?

Hungary they get spec 4, RBR in Spa or Monza.

In Sochi they run the special Japan mapping (going full out for home crowd).

In Abu Dhabi they run the concept 2020 version, and they can then also further use it in the tyre test after the race. This would give them a head start on 2020.

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:48 pm

Is this new information? Honda has shown this since the beginning of the season.
Dual inlet, dual outlet, split turbo physically connected and it's orientation.
Image

Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wazari » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:23 pm

Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:41 am
On the Verstappen forum Schummie01 (who is trusted over there, but I cant verify it) says Honda have a special cooling fluid that is ahead of the competition allowing them to detune less in warm weather. Maybe Wazari can confirm this
I don't think so. Honda does use a "waterless" coolant formulated for them but I would think the other manufacturers are all using a similar coolant so I don't think it would that far ahead of the others if at all.
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.