Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Singabule
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Singabule » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:39 am

IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:47 am
Does somenody know what is the lowest possible operating temperature suitable for cylinder head and cobustion chamber to prevent knocking?
Higher is always desirable except the NOX portion. But don't mix it up with combustion temperature, and little bit knock would also desirable if you want to achieve self ignition (HCCI). The key is how to achieve this without compromizing too much on reliability. The lean burn one (lamda about 2) would be about 850-900 degree, and its still far from what the manufacturer can achieve right now. The operating temperature would be lower than 180 degrees as aluminium cant allow anything higher than that.

IvailoStefanovBG
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by IvailoStefanovBG » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:45 am

Singabule wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:39 am
IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:47 am
Does somenody know what is the lowest possible operating temperature suitable for cylinder head and combustion chamber to prevent knocking?
Higher is always desirable except the NOX portion. But don't mix it up with combustion temperature, and little bit knock would also desirable if you want to achieve self ignition (HCCI). The key is how to achieve this without compromizing too much on reliability. The lean burn one (lamda about 2) would be about 850-900 degree, and its still far from what the manufacturer can achieve right now. The operating temperature would be lower than 180 degrees as aluminium cant allow anything higher than that.
So is there any chance they use some kind of refrigerant cycle to cool combsution chamber and cylinder head with temperatures below ambient?

Singabule
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Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:47 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Singabule » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:07 am

IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:45 am
Singabule wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:39 am
IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:47 am
Does somenody know what is the lowest possible operating temperature suitable for cylinder head and combustion chamber to prevent knocking?
Higher is always desirable except the NOX portion. But don't mix it up with combustion temperature, and little bit knock would also desirable if you want to achieve self ignition (HCCI). The key is how to achieve this without compromizing too much on reliability. The lean burn one (lamda about 2) would be about 850-900 degree, and its still far from what the manufacturer can achieve right now. The operating temperature would be lower than 180 degrees as aluminium cant allow anything higher than that.
So is there any chance they use some kind of refrigerant cycle to cool combsution chamber and cylinder head with temperatures below ambient?
Well thats too much off topic, but why you want to reduce to below ambient (30 degrees)? This is ICE not processor OC.

Singabule
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Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:47 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Singabule » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:08 am

IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:45 am
Singabule wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:39 am
IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:47 am
Does somenody know what is the lowest possible operating temperature suitable for cylinder head and combustion chamber to prevent knocking?
Higher is always desirable except the NOX portion. But don't mix it up with combustion temperature, and little bit knock would also desirable if you want to achieve self ignition (HCCI). The key is how to achieve this without compromizing too much on reliability. The lean burn one (lamda about 2) would be about 850-900 degree, and its still far from what the manufacturer can achieve right now. The operating temperature would be lower than 180 degrees as aluminium cant allow anything higher than that.
So is there any chance they use some kind of refrigerant cycle to cool combsution chamber and cylinder head with temperatures below ambient?
Well thats too much off topic, but why you want to reduce to below ambient (30 degrees)? This is ICE not processor OC.

saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:29 am

Last time I was following the subject (temperatures at point of combustion) it was stated that the instantaneous gas temperature at point of combustion in a modern F1 engine can reach up to 2600 degree C.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:00 am

IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:47 am
Does somenody know what is the lowest possible operating temperature suitable for cylinder head and cobustion chamber to prevent knocking?
OK You are talking about the engine block and cylinder head temperature?

Block / head temperature not be too hot to make the lubricating oil too runny, and also the temperature near the combustion chamber must allow heat rejection from any hot spots inside the chamber. The temperatures throughout the head/block are not even though. The designer locates the cooling near the hot areas.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Singabule
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Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:47 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Singabule » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:16 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:29 am
Last time I was following the subject (temperatures at point of combustion) it was stated that the instantaneous gas temperature at point of combustion in a modern F1 engine can reach up to 2600 degree C.
Yes, and that way much higher than the best (HCCI) may achieve. 2600 is referring to the modern F1 non turbocharged one. Still a lot room for improvement for current regs, hence the manufacturer quite hesitant to move on. SCCI and TJI are the stop gap towards HCCI. The target always to lower the avarage combustion temperature by adding the air mass and complete instantegeous combustion, increase the heat rejection from cylinder wall, reduce the friction, reduce the cooling requirement and heat loss by all of that factor. The heat excess then captured by turbo compound. Thats the current engine regulations and its really pinnacle of technology.

saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:23 pm

2600 degree C was referring to the modern F1 turbocharged ICE instantaneous gas temperature at point of combustion.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:59 pm

IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:45 am
Singabule wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:39 am
IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:47 am
Does somenody know what is the lowest possible operating temperature suitable for cylinder head and combustion chamber to prevent knocking?
Higher is always desirable except the NOX portion. But don't mix it up with combustion temperature, and little bit knock would also desirable if you want to achieve self ignition (HCCI). The key is how to achieve this without compromizing too much on reliability. The lean burn one (lamda about 2) would be about 850-900 degree, and its still far from what the manufacturer can achieve right now. The operating temperature would be lower than 180 degrees as aluminium cant allow anything higher than that.
So is there any chance they use some kind of refrigerant cycle to cool combsution chamber and cylinder head with temperatures below ambient?
Not legal AFAIK. There is a rule outlawing the use of phase changes in cooling systems.
(I guess that would not prohibit some kind of gas-cycle refrigeration but those are typically bulky and less efficient)
je suis charlie

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:57 am

gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:59 pm
IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:45 am
Singabule wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:39 am


Higher is always desirable except the NOX portion. But don't mix it up with combustion temperature, and little bit knock would also desirable if you want to achieve self ignition (HCCI). The key is how to achieve this without compromizing too much on reliability. The lean burn one (lamda about 2) would be about 850-900 degree, and its still far from what the manufacturer can achieve right now. The operating temperature would be lower than 180 degrees as aluminium cant allow anything higher than that.
So is there any chance they use some kind of refrigerant cycle to cool combsution chamber and cylinder head with temperatures below ambient?
Not legal AFAIK. There is a rule outlawing the use of phase changes in cooling systems.
(I guess that would not prohibit some kind of gas-cycle refrigeration but those are typically bulky and less efficient)
I kept thinking of that rule when when water boiling was being brought up these last few pages.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:02 am

The argument would be that "nucleate boiling" simply helps transfer heat from the metal surface to somewhere deeper in the fluid flow (where the bubbles condense) but still within the heat generating device (engine), as opposed to transferring heat to the heat rejection device (radiator).
je suis charlie

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:44 am

If vapor bubbles did travel to the radiators, it would be hard to police. If components of coolant had different boiling points perhaps a phase change could be hidden. Bubbles of vapor or steam taken away from the engine toward the radiators to condense. Water in silicone, kerosene, or glycol. Alcohol, acetone, methanol, benzene, petrol, etc., in water. For example. Maybe surfactants or emulsifiers could be used to control bubble size. Goal: a coolant which can transition from a liquid to a fine liquid foam via boiling and condensation of a fractional component(s).

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:02 am
The argument would be that "nucleate boiling" simply helps transfer heat from the metal surface to somewhere deeper in the fluid flow (where the bubbles condense) but still within the heat generating device (engine), as opposed to transferring heat to the heat rejection device (radiator).
The coolant inside the engine is part of the heat rejection device, however.

In the wider context of the discussion we might consider use of metallic particles to increase the heat transfer rate of the solvent.

PhillipM
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Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PhillipM » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:05 am

Mclaren did at one point have research going into aluminium nanoparticle-filled coolant. They didn't use it when they had the Honda in though.

honda_fun
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by honda_fun » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:15 pm

https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/

This blog analyzed the speed of every 0.1 seconds of both cars by telemetry at austlia GP.
The data was from lap 61 of VER and lap 58 of LEC from the approach of turn 1 to the point of brake at turn 3.
At turn1 both drivers selected 4th gear, the bottom speed of VER was 136kmh, and accelerated immediately.
On the other hand, which of LEC was 131kmh and ran at the speed for 0.5sec.
VER had a full throttle at 155kmh. LEC had it at 165kmh.
Ferrari has low drag and was superior in acceleration performance and its maximum speed was 304kmh.
As for RB, acceleration became slightly dull from 287kmh and recorded 299kmh for max speed.
It might be said that VER had the fast lap time thanks to cornering performance of RB.
Image
Image

Comparison of acceleration performance of LEC and VER
This graph was plotted of both cars speeds from 165kmh(when LEC had full throttle).
Against expectations,to 290kmh,VER only lost to LEC just a little.
Considering of the drug of RB, RA619H might be as same performance as ferrari until 290kmh.
The point that should be improved for Honda is over 290kmh.
Image

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:23 am

PhillipM wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:05 am
Mclaren did at one point have research going into aluminium nanoparticle-filled coolant. They didn't use it when they had the Honda in though.
I came across this interesting research with current application being in HVAC systems to boost capacity by 5x. Granted it’s “biphasic”, so it wouldn’t be allowed, but interesting none the less.

https://phys.org/news/2019-08-approach ... cient.html