Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:00 pm
They brought the fuel it works. Ferrari just had too much pace this round. On to Sochi, I think RBR will be much better there as the downforce requirements are right in the car's window. Mostly mid speed corners in sector 1 & 2 which is where they are fastest of all.
Interesting! Does this explain why the PU sounded noticeably different? It was definitely more crackly and the cylinder cut occasionally sounded different. Verstappens onboard in Q3 it is very noticeable (see Juzh upload).

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IvailoStefanovBG
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:37 am
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:00 pm
They brought the fuel it works. Ferrari just had too much pace this round. On to Sochi, I think RBR will be much better there as the downforce requirements are right in the car's window. Mostly mid speed corners in sector 1 & 2 which is where they are fastest of all.
Interesting! Does this explain why the PU sounded noticeably different? It was definitely more crackly and the cylinder cut occasionally sounded different. Verstappens onboard in Q3 it is very noticeable (see Juzh upload).
The "clipping" - this is how Max calls it - happened alot more in "boost" mode... that`s why it`s very noticeable in Q mode. By the way - does anybody have an idea what this "boost"mode means?

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:37 am
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:00 pm
They brought the fuel it works. Ferrari just had too much pace this round. On to Sochi, I think RBR will be much better there as the downforce requirements are right in the car's window. Mostly mid speed corners in sector 1 & 2 which is where they are fastest of all.
Interesting! Does this explain why the PU sounded noticeably different? It was definitely more crackly and the cylinder cut occasionally sounded different. Verstappens onboard in Q3 it is very noticeable (see Juzh upload).
It difference must be because of new combustion consept which Tanabe san talked about.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:37 am
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:00 pm
They brought the fuel it works. Ferrari just had too much pace this round. On to Sochi, I think RBR will be much better there as the downforce requirements are right in the car's window. Mostly mid speed corners in sector 1 & 2 which is where they are fastest of all.
Interesting! Does this explain why the PU sounded noticeably different? It was definitely more crackly and the cylinder cut occasionally sounded different. Verstappens onboard in Q3 it is very noticeable (see Juzh upload).
Still ironing out the kinks, they didn't want to unleash it all just yet. Sound is mainly due to ignition timing settings, as of now they are conservative. Good news is even with these preliminary settings it is still a bit more efficient and powerful than spec 3. There is more to come, Honda will turn it up a bit more next round should be worth another tenth and a half relative to Mercedes.

What really interests me is their concept, the fact they got it to work is very impressive, if it is what I've been led to believe. Even if other manufacturers knew the concept, highly unlikely they would be able to copy it without a year of trial and error.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:59 pm
Honda will turn it up a bit more next round should be worth another tenth and a half relative to Mercedes.
Do you mean boosting the current engine or by using new engine parts?

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:28 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:59 pm
Honda will turn it up a bit more next round should be worth another tenth and a half relative to Mercedes.
Do you mean boosting the current engine or by using new engine parts?
Current engine being turned up as far as the fuel will allow. Which wasn't done in Singapore.

They needed to validate their models with real world numbers. These power units operate so close to the edge that any mishap can wreck the lump.

If you were in such a situation would you rather base all your data off dyno runs, or would you rather have real world data complimenting your dyno results? This is why it takes a race or two after introducing a new power unit, to fully unleash it. Even if you have really good data and knowledge from past experiments, you are always starting anew when refining a concept.

This data also feeds back into fuel development.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

maguetox
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:59 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:37 am
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:00 pm
They brought the fuel it works. Ferrari just had too much pace this round. On to Sochi, I think RBR will be much better there as the downforce requirements are right in the car's window. Mostly mid speed corners in sector 1 & 2 which is where they are fastest of all.
Interesting! Does this explain why the PU sounded noticeably different? It was definitely more crackly and the cylinder cut occasionally sounded different. Verstappens onboard in Q3 it is very noticeable (see Juzh upload).
Still ironing out the kinks, they didn't want to unleash it all just yet. Sound is mainly due to ignition timing settings, as of now they are conservative. Good news is even with these preliminary settings it is still a bit more efficient and powerful than spec 3. There is more to come, Honda will turn it up a bit more next round should be worth another tenth and a half relative to Mercedes.

What really interests me is their concept, the fact they got it to work is very impressive, if it is what I've been led to believe. Even if other manufacturers knew the concept, highly unlikely they would be able to copy it without a year of trial and error.
But the new power benchmark is Ferrari, Mercedes is a better package overall but power wise, Ferrari must be the target that Honda needs to beat, now if this new combustion concept (if I recall correctly, Wazari san was working on it) will be enough to close the gap with Ferrari, or will need to use the Susuka special fuel to close the actual gap or surpass Ferrari.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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There aren't that many opportunities to introduce fuel during the season. Therefore when the fuel is introduced is critical. As you could create a power unit and fuel combo, and you realize another fuel would work much better. However if poorly timed you would be stuck with that combination for quite some time.

Better to have the power unit that you intend to use the fuel with, and introduce fuel at the last moment to ensure a proper synthesis of the two.

That is to say use both fuels to validate that your process is working as intended. Then once verified, run the final fuel blend on all cars with the intended settings. Remember that reliability is also at stake.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

McMika98
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:59 pm
What really interests me is their concept, the fact they got it to work is very impressive, if it is what I've been led to believe. Even if other manufacturers knew the concept, highly unlikely they would be able to copy it without a year of trial and error.
In the 5 years of Honda returning, we have heard this over and over. Fool me once shame on me fool me again... Seriously stop the non sense. Ferrari gains two tenth on Merc on a 500m straight let alone a lap. So why would teams want to get this concept if as you say it gains tenth over a lap.
Horner has come out questioning Ferrari fuel and battery. He knows there isn't more coming from Honda to match Ferrari.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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McMika98 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:16 pm
Horner He knows there isn't more coming from Honda to match Ferrari.
Could you explane that to me? Where did Horner said that? #-o

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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McMika98 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:16 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:59 pm
What really interests me is their concept, the fact they got it to work is very impressive, if it is what I've been led to believe. Even if other manufacturers knew the concept, highly unlikely they would be able to copy it without a year of trial and error.
In the 5 years of Honda returning, we have heard this over and over. Fool me once shame on me fool me again... Seriously stop the non sense. Ferrari gains two tenth on Merc on a 500m straight let alone a lap. So why would teams want to get this concept if as you say it gains tenth over a lap.
Horner has come out questioning Ferrari fuel and battery. He knows there isn't more coming from Honda to match Ferrari.
There is more coming from Honda. When I say a tenth and a half I mean relative to Mercedes. The actual lap time gained will be higher. Plus you cannot say with certainty that Ferrari's form will continue on other tracks. In the race Verstappen was only .3 slower than Ferrari, and held pace with them. Clearly Honda was not being used to it's full potential.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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McMika98 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:16 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:59 pm
What really interests me is their concept, the fact they got it to work is very impressive, if it is what I've been led to believe. Even if other manufacturers knew the concept, highly unlikely they would be able to copy it without a year of trial and error.
In the 5 years of Honda returning, we have heard this over and over. Fool me once shame on me fool me again... Seriously stop the non sense. Ferrari gains two tenth on Merc on a 500m straight let alone a lap. So why would teams want to get this concept if as you say it gains tenth over a lap.
Horner has come out questioning Ferrari fuel and battery. He knows there isn't more coming from Honda to match Ferrari.
This is not new news... For a long time now, people in the paddock have commented on the smell of the Ferrari's exhaust. Toto Wolff, Horner and several Sky F1 commentators among those. Mentioning it smells like grapefruit juice. Ferrari have always had something unique about the smell of their exhaust. Horner is just mentioning that but then goes on to say their advantage is likely a combination of things, the electric side and the combustion side.

He's hardly saying anything outrageous. It's old news and he is being asked about his thoughts on Ferrari's pace, so his answers are a direct response to that.

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:47 pm
There aren't that many opportunities to introduce fuel during the season. Therefore when the fuel is introduced is critical. As you could create a power unit and fuel combo, and you realize another fuel would work much better. However if poorly timed you would be stuck with that combination for quite some time.

Better to have the power unit that you intend to use the fuel with, and introduce fuel at the last moment to ensure a proper synthesis of the two.

That is to say use both fuels to validate that your process is working as intended. Then once verified, run the final fuel blend on all cars with the intended settings. Remember that reliability is also at stake.
I'm honestly glad they are doing things this way. The unfortunate first years with regards to reliability, I feel like it's had the effect of making them extreme perfectionists in this area and nothing will get even remotely close to full potential at the track straight away without certainty they've proved themselves. Like when they commented how surprised they were to see Ferrari and Mercedes having failures...

I get the vibe from them they've now got this almost insane meticulosity with their reliability and so I wouldn't be surprised if from now on, they keep the tag they earned this year of being the most reliable manufacture.

As for this "unique concept" they've got going on, I'm hearing more and more about it now strong, developed variants are making it to track. All the unique things the Honda PU does in it's operation, all pointing to this?

Bill
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Honda usually after an upgrade takes a few gps before they turn the engine up ,in terms of pure lap times Max was able to match the Ferraris in monza so let wait and see

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Juzh
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:37 am
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:00 pm
They brought the fuel it works. Ferrari just had too much pace this round. On to Sochi, I think RBR will be much better there as the downforce requirements are right in the car's window. Mostly mid speed corners in sector 1 & 2 which is where they are fastest of all.
Interesting! Does this explain why the PU sounded noticeably different? It was definitely more crackly and the cylinder cut occasionally sounded different. Verstappens onboard in Q3 it is very noticeable (see Juzh upload).
I artificially raise the exhaust mic (left audio channel) in premiere pro and then reencode as mono (combining both audio channels into one). I do that for more or less all cars because personally I find the exhaust mic noise very nice and adds more to the overall experience, compared to the bland regular mic.
What I'm saying is you shouldn't rely too much on my clips to spot differences in engines sounds, because I might change the volume on a race by race basis (depends on how sensitive FOM decied each mic to be, which is also changing constantly).