Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
loner
46
User avatar
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:34 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by loner » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:11 pm

if Ferrari still have big advantage in qualifying lets say legally as long FIA say so next year how can they freeze the PU development in 2021?!!
they should keep the current regulations until 2025 perhaps with increasing the MJ and call it a day,seems to me there are still big gains can be achieved with smart engineering and exploiting grey areas.
para bellum.

godlameroso
355
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:18 pm

Wazari mentioned spec 5 will now be 2020 spec 1. I hope that means a nice step, both Mercedes and Ferrari will be improving their power units, and I hope Honda is now in a place where it's developments keep pace with the others.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

lio007
283
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by lio007 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:46 pm

What are the main areas where Honda has to or can improve? Do they have to explore the grey areas more than they do now? On the other hand it may be not worth it to put a lot of effort and ressources into things that may get restricted from one day to the other.

AFAIK this year they were focussed on combustion and turbo-improvements.
I think we can assume they keep their architecture and it is reported that Honda is on the smaller side in terms of PU-size, so it's unlikely they can improve a lot in this regard.

godlameroso
355
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:53 pm

lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:46 pm
What are the main areas where Honda has to or can improve? Do they have to explore the grey areas more than they do now? On the other hand it may be not worth it to put a lot of effort and ressources into things that may get restricted from one day to the other.

AFAIK this year they were focussed on combustion and turbo-improvements.
I think we can assume they keep their architecture and it is reported that Honda is on the smaller side in terms of PU-size, so it's unlikely they can improve a lot in this regard.
The fact they didn't have their latest pu on display shows they have something they didn't want people seeing so casually. Probably further refinements of the concept. New turbo, new intake plenum, further development of their cylinder head. Hopefully since it was scheduled for this year but pushed back to next it means it can be that little bit better developed.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

lio007
283
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by lio007 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:26 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:53 pm
lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:46 pm
What are the main areas where Honda has to or can improve? Do they have to explore the grey areas more than they do now? On the other hand it may be not worth it to put a lot of effort and ressources into things that may get restricted from one day to the other.

AFAIK this year they were focussed on combustion and turbo-improvements.
I think we can assume they keep their architecture and it is reported that Honda is on the smaller side in terms of PU-size, so it's unlikely they can improve a lot in this regard.
The fact they didn't have their latest pu on display shows they have something they didn't want people seeing so casually. Probably further refinements of the concept. New turbo, new intake plenum, further development of their cylinder head. Hopefully since it was scheduled for this year but pushed back to next it means it can be that little bit better developed.
Or they simply wanted to check durability of their existing PU's in the pool. Because one thing is clear: if they are fighting for the championship, they can't afford to exceed PU-allocations as defined by the regulations.

I know the 5 PU's this year were not due to reliability concerns(at least officially) but for Performance reasons, but that's an area they definitely need to improve. Starting at the back caused by grid penalties makes it more difficult.

Nevertheless I'm a bit worried about the Merc-rumours. Apparently they found big chunk of performance in one of their single-cylinder concepts.

I wonder if Honda can make a similar step in the next couple of months.

godlameroso
355
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:40 pm

lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:26 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:53 pm
lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:46 pm
What are the main areas where Honda has to or can improve? Do they have to explore the grey areas more than they do now? On the other hand it may be not worth it to put a lot of effort and ressources into things that may get restricted from one day to the other.

AFAIK this year they were focussed on combustion and turbo-improvements.
I think we can assume they keep their architecture and it is reported that Honda is on the smaller side in terms of PU-size, so it's unlikely they can improve a lot in this regard.
The fact they didn't have their latest pu on display shows they have something they didn't want people seeing so casually. Probably further refinements of the concept. New turbo, new intake plenum, further development of their cylinder head. Hopefully since it was scheduled for this year but pushed back to next it means it can be that little bit better developed.
Or they simply wanted to check durability of their existing PU's in the pool. Because one thing is clear: if they are fighting for the championship, they can't afford to exceed PU-allocations as defined by the regulations.

I know the 5 PU's this year were not due to reliability concerns(at least officially) but for Performance reasons, but that's an area they definitely need to improve. Starting at the back caused by grid penalties makes it more difficult.

Nevertheless I'm a bit worried about the Merc-rumours. Apparently they found big chunk of performance in one of their single-cylinder concepts.

I wonder if Honda can make a similar step in the next couple of months.
I have zero doubt that Honda can now finish the season on a 3 engine allotment, as can Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari. The engines are evolved enough now that engines going pop is incredibly rare, most failures have been ancillaries, the main engine itself is almost bulletproof. Even this year, engine performance has started to converge, the power differential is nowhere near what it was in 2017, or 2018. I think that the difference in power units will be similar to the old V8's by next year.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Bill
-5
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bill » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:22 pm

They are always romours that Mercedes will find big chunks of engine performance when new season starts and that it will be the biggest since the hybrid engines where introduced. The bottom line is development has reached peak positions large performance gains are impossible unless you use exotic materials and spend astronomical amounts of money but those are banned .what we hear in the media are the usual rituals.

Honda can match Mercedes for power and reliability better in high altitude.Rbr and Mercedes are they only team with 100% reliability. Gasly hit a kerb and damaged the drive shaft in Baku but that can't be deemed a reliability issue

Wouter
203
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:45 pm

lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:26 pm
Nevertheless I'm a bit worried about the Merc-rumours.
Apparently they found big chunk of performance in one of their single-cylinder concepts.

I wonder if Honda can make a similar step in the next couple of months.
I am not worried at all. Honda will bring a huge upgrade with the Spec 5.
They will start 2020 with an even better spec 5.XX.
The Honda engine is currently at the same height as the Mercedes engine,
so Mercedes can safely come up with a major upgrade, no problem.

lio007
283
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by lio007 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:11 pm

Wouter wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:45 pm
lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:26 pm
Nevertheless I'm a bit worried about the Merc-rumours.
Apparently they found big chunk of performance in one of their single-cylinder concepts.

I wonder if Honda can make a similar step in the next couple of months.
I am not worried at all. Honda will bring a huge upgrade with the Spec 5.
They will start 2020 with an even better spec 5.XX.
The Honda engine is currently at the same height as the Mercedes engine,
so Mercedes can safely come up with a major upgrade, no problem.
I hope you're right. At least I haven't read any reports in terms of expected performance improvement for next years PU.

Wouter
203
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:43 pm

lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:11 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:45 pm
lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:26 pm
Nevertheless I'm a bit worried about the Merc-rumours.
Apparently they found big chunk of performance in one of their single-cylinder concepts.

I wonder if Honda can make a similar step in the next couple of months.
I am not worried at all. Honda will bring a huge upgrade with the Spec 5.
They will start 2020 with an even better spec 5.XX.
The Honda engine is currently at the same height as the Mercedes engine,
so Mercedes can safely come up with a major upgrade, no problem.
.
I hope you're right.
At least I haven't read any reports in terms of expected performance improvement for next years PU.
Did you really not read that? :)
Of course you can not read everything about the Honda engine, can you? :wink:

lio007
283
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by lio007 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:33 pm

Wouter wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:43 pm
lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:11 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:45 pm


I am not worried at all. Honda will bring a huge upgrade with the Spec 5.
They will start 2020 with an even better spec 5.XX.
The Honda engine is currently at the same height as the Mercedes engine,
so Mercedes can safely come up with a major upgrade, no problem.
.
I hope you're right.
At least I haven't read any reports in terms of expected performance improvement for next years PU.
Did you really not read that? :)
Of course you can not read everything about the Honda engine, can you? :wink:
I read a lot of content around RBR. But right now I can't remember specific statements from Max, Dr. Marko, CH or Tanabe-san. I can remember a post from Wazari-san stating another spec-PU would be race-ready but is not used for whatever reason. Is this PU-spec a huge improvement, I don't know.
Unfortunately they are not allowed to try it in the post Abu-Dhabi test, because AFAIK only raced specs (PU and chassis+bodywork) are allowed to be run. At least this has been the case (as far as my memory is right) in 2018.

Capharol
48
User avatar
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Capharol » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:28 pm

lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:33 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:43 pm
lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:11 pm


.
I hope you're right.
At least I haven't read any reports in terms of expected performance improvement for next years PU.
Did you really not read that? :)
Of course you can not read everything about the Honda engine, can you? :wink:
I read a lot of content around RBR. But right now I can't remember specific statements from Max, Dr. Marko, CH or Tanabe-san. I can remember a post from Wazari-san stating another spec-PU would be race-ready but is not used for whatever reason. Is this PU-spec a huge improvement, I don't know.
Unfortunately they are not allowed to try it in the post Abu-Dhabi test, because AFAIK only raced specs (PU and chassis+bodywork) are allowed to be run. At least this has been the case (as far as my memory is right) in 2018.
I think Wouter meant, "you won't read it, because they aren't always giving us all the details"
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

GhostF1
154
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:11 am

lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:33 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:43 pm
lio007 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:11 pm


.
I hope you're right.
At least I haven't read any reports in terms of expected performance improvement for next years PU.
Did you really not read that? :)
Of course you can not read everything about the Honda engine, can you? :wink:
I read a lot of content around RBR. But right now I can't remember specific statements from Max, Dr. Marko, CH or Tanabe-san. I can remember a post from Wazari-san stating another spec-PU would be race-ready but is not used for whatever reason. Is this PU-spec a huge improvement, I don't know.
Unfortunately they are not allowed to try it in the post Abu-Dhabi test, because AFAIK only raced specs (PU and chassis+bodywork) are allowed to be run. At least this has been the case (as far as my memory is right) in 2018.
When they introduced the Spec 4, Tanabe and Asaki said the combustion style was the main change but there is scope for further improvement and they will keep pushing. So it sounds like they are confident in further development for future iterations. Tanabe was asked about introducing even a Spec 5 this year and he "possibly, that depends on whether it will be ready in time and the PU plan we have for both teams for years end".

And you know what, if Toro Rosso were not in such a competitive position to finish 6th or maybe even 5th if Renault implode, then I think they'd plan for a test engine at years end.

So there's definitely more advances around the corner. So I have a good feeling for next year. Bring on winter testing.

godlameroso
355
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:55 am

Honda has upped it's investment, I'm guessing this will bear fruit next year. Some of the gain will come from an even better installation of the engine to the chassis. This year it was a good installation because they had the engine in the TR the year before and knew exactly what they were getting. However now, they know even more, and Honda can always improve the footprint of the power unit. Now that the front wing is performing as intended, they can focus more resources on the rear of the car to improve the high speed downforce, the one area where they're behind Mercedes.

.3 seconds in race trim is the gap, they can close it, they're not miles away. Even if they can't close the gap entirely, if it's just .1 or .2 Verstappen can make the difference.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Slo Poke
4
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Slo Poke » Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:18 am

Common enough mistake to make I suppose! Ross Brawn had the very same thing pointed out to him, 2013.
Photo three: the cart is in front of the horse!