Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PlatinumZealot]

Ferrari and Mercedes both overhauling their engines for 2020! Honda staying the same and improving their concept! Of course that can mean a lot of things...the gap between them and Honda getting bigger for example!

But that could also mean that both Ferrari and Mercedes could end up with worse reliability in their quest to improve their new concept...that may be a chance for Honda to get ahead of them or at least get a head start in the 2020 season!

I'm curious to see how much of an improvement Honda's Spec 1 2020 engine will be over 2019 Spec 4! They sure have room for improvement in their concept i believe...

Remeber Honda came to the party late so they had a year to look on other peoples solutions! Honda might just have a more advanced design? We would never know can we?

[PlatinumZealot]

[quote=godlameroso post_id=878911 time=1576330013 user_id=9250]

Those BMW v10s are junk, their rings sucked the big one. I've torn enough of those engines down and lo and behold the oil control rings get stuck because the CPUs run rich as hell and leave carbon deposits all up in the ring grooves, especially with age.
[/quote]

In slow speed diesel engine power generationation we used to measure the oil consumption in grams per kilowatt hour. You gonna turn up the engine? You turn up the cylinder oil dosage by that prescribed g/kWhr to lubricate and cool the rings accordingly.
Fortunately with those types of engines the oil for the cylinders was independent and controllable from a control panel. The crankcase all is isolated from the cylinders and cooled the pistons in a closed loop via the connecting rod.

Anyway.... Just saying you have to measure oil consumption with power times time (energy) of the engine to relate to how much it burns to sustain the cylinders. Mileage has nothing to do with it... You could run low power for hundreds of miles and barely consume any oil.

[ispano6]

Ferrari and Mercedes both overhauling their engines for 2020! Honda staying the same and improving their concept! Of course that can mean a lot of things...the gap between them and Honda getting bigger for example!

But that could also mean that both Ferrari and Mercedes could end up with worse reliability in their quest to improve their new concept...that may be a chance for Honda to get ahead of them or at least get a head start in the 2020 season!

I'm curious to see how much of an improvement Honda's Spec 1 2020 engine will be over 2019 Spec 4! They sure have room for improvement in their concept i believe...

Remeber Honda came to the party late so they had a year to look on other peoples solutions! Honda might just have a more advanced design? We would never know can we?

Let's see if others copy some of Honda layout philosophy. Top mounted radiators etc.

[Big Tea]

Those BMW v10s are junk, their rings sucked the big one. I've torn enough of those engines down and lo and behold the oil control rings get stuck because the CPUs run rich as hell and leave carbon deposits all up in the ring grooves, especially with age.

In slow speed diesel engine power generationation we used to measure the oil consumption in grams per kilowatt hour. You gonna turn up the engine? You turn up the cylinder oil dosage by that prescribed g/kWhr to lubricate and cool the rings accordingly.
Fortunately with those types of engines the oil for the cylinders was independent and controllable from a control panel. The crankcase all is isolated from the cylinders and cooled the pistons in a closed loop via the connecting rod.

Anyway.... Just saying you have to measure oil consumption with power times time (energy) of the engine to relate to how much it burns to sustain the cylinders. Mileage has nothing to do with it... You could run low power for hundreds of miles and barely consume any oil.

Does not the 'job' of the oil also have a huge effect on this? A road car knows it will need 10k between changes so some control of ring loss has to be in the design, while in a F1 (or any race) engine all is all about efficient lube and cooling and if it slips past the rings, too bad as it has a reserve tank and will be drained after the session anyway.

[PhillipM]

I've torn enough of those engines down and lo and behold the oil control rings get stuck because the CPUs run rich as hell and leave carbon deposits all up in the ring grooves, especially with age.

You don't think any of the race cars actually run the stock ECU's and mapping, do you?

[63l8qrrfy6]

You do realize that they use new spark plugs for every race so probably they change them every 300 km or so.

[Capharol]

I've torn enough of those engines down and lo and behold the oil control rings get stuck because the CPUs run rich as hell and leave carbon deposits all up in the ring grooves, especially with age.

You don't think any of the race cars actually run the stock ECU's and mapping, do you?

You do realize that they use new spark plugs for every race so probably they change them every 300 km or so.

thats why i said already to him there is a difference in F1 and "road" cars even if they are racecars, you can't compare them, but he doesn't wanna listen to it ..... so hey why discussing it any further

[PlatinumZealot]

You do realize that they use new spark plugs for every race so probably they change them every 300 km or so.

Yeah. Cheap insurance.

[godlameroso]

I've torn enough of those engines down and lo and behold the oil control rings get stuck because the CPUs run rich as hell and leave carbon deposits all up in the ring grooves, especially with age.

You don't think any of the race cars actually run the stock ECU's and mapping, do you?

Depends on the car and level of competition. GT4 is a far cry from F1.

[GhostF1]

Ferrari and Mercedes both overhauling their engines for 2020! Honda staying the same and improving their concept! Of course that can mean a lot of things...the gap between them and Honda getting bigger for example!

But that could also mean that both Ferrari and Mercedes could end up with worse reliability in their quest to improve their new concept...that may be a chance for Honda to get ahead of them or at least get a head start in the 2020 season!

I'm curious to see how much of an improvement Honda's Spec 1 2020 engine will be over 2019 Spec 4! They sure have room for improvement in their concept i believe...

Remeber Honda came to the party late so they had a year to look on other peoples solutions! Honda might just have a more advanced design? We would never know can we?

Let's see if others copy some of Honda layout philosophy. Top mounted radiators etc.

The top mount Rad solution seems to be RBR exclusive, probably born out of what Horner alluded to where RBR had direct involvement in PU design. Toro Rosso did not use the same layout, they retained the more "typical" cooling design, although I would not be surprised to see the 2020 Alpha Tauri car using the top mount idea as they have the entire rear crash structure, gearbox and the suspension at all four corners of this years RB15 for next year, and unless they are convinced of a different aero design path that affects cooling, I'd assume they'll follow suit there as well.

(Side note.. Bodes well for Alpha Tauri, they'll have a gearbox designed for the Honda PU from the get go, hopefully they will hassle Renault even more in 2020, more specifically Abiteboul)

As for PU development, there was one outlet that claimed a Toro Rosso engineer told them Honda had one Spec 5 PU ready and waiting in RBR's garage at Abu Dhabi as a "just in case" if there was a crash requiring a PU change. He was glad it wasn't necessary but also mentioned it "was a shame we couldn't see that one in action".
(Please note, I can no longer find the article to link, so it's potential smoke)

If that is true, we know Spec 5 was ready, possibly impressive as well and if the Spec 1 RA620 is a further refinement, we can be hopeful it'll be a good step over what we've seen on track.

[ispano6]

Remeber Honda came to the party late so they had a year to look on other peoples solutions! Honda might just have a more advanced design? We would never know can we?

Let's see if others copy some of Honda layout philosophy. Top mounted radiators etc.

The top mount Rad solution seems to be RBR exclusive, probably born out of what Horner alluded to where RBR had direct involvement in PU design. Toro Rosso did not use the same layout, they retained the more "typical" cooling design, although I would not be surprised to see the 2020 Alpha Tauri car using the top mount idea as they have the entire rear crash structure, gearbox and the suspension at all four corners of this years RB15 for next year, and unless they are convinced of a different aero design path that affects cooling, I'd assume they'll follow suit there as well.

(Side note.. Bodes well for Alpha Tauri, they'll have a gearbox designed for the Honda PU from the get go, hopefully they will hassle Renault even more in 2020, more specifically Abiteboul)

As for PU development, there was one outlet that claimed a Toro Rosso engineer told them Honda had one Spec 5 PU ready and waiting in RBR's garage at Abu Dhabi as a "just in case" if there was a crash requiring a PU change. He was glad it wasn't necessary but also mentioned it "was a shame we couldn't see that one in action".
(Please note, I can no longer find the article to link, so it's potential smoke)

If that is true, we know Spec 5 was ready, possibly impressive as well and if the Spec 1 RA620 is a further refinement, we can be hopeful it'll be a good step over what we've seen on track.

Seems both STR and RB had top mounted radiators with different ducting solutions according to the article.
https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_54102.html

The RBR involvement is definitely producing results. It shows they took advantage of the low COG of the PU to free up the side pods, which had a direct benefit for the diffuser. Red Bull really now enjoys works status with a PU supplier that listens and values their input and Honda has the respect and trust to operate with pride and determination. Tanabe's summary of 2019 was one of relief and motivation. The issues faced during the last race were unfortunate but served as a lesson and motivation for next year that such issues won't be repeated.
He was also particularly pleased that Toro Rosso shared the podium with Red Bull after a run of poor results since the second half of last year. Hopefully Alpha Tauri will have a stronger package close to the performance of RBR.

[PhillipM]

Depends on the car and level of competition. GT4 is a far cry from F1.

Aside from some very strict manufacturer events you're not going to find many racecars running stock mapping.
And the oil consumption certainly isn't anything due to the mapping, it's mechanical design.

[godlameroso]

Right so getting back to the current power units. I wouldn't be surprised if they were pushing the limits on the rings, and there is some temporary plug fouling at lower rpms. Ignition is slightly retarded, and there appears a "torque hole" at the exit of some corners. Once the ignition intensifies on throttle, the deposits on the spark plug are burned away and ignition timing goes back to normal.

It could just as easily be that Honda needs a more aggressive harvesting strategy to maintain ERS boost.

Or a combination of factors, these two, plus ones I haven't though of.

[GhostF1]

Right so getting back to the current power units. I wouldn't be surprised if they were pushing the limits on the rings, and there is some temporary plug fouling at lower rpms. Ignition is slightly retarded, and there appears a "torque hole" at the exit of some corners. Once the ignition intensifies on throttle, the deposits on the spark plug are burned away and ignition timing goes back to normal.

It could just as easily be that Honda needs a more aggressive harvesting strategy to maintain ERS boost.

Or a combination of factors, these two, plus ones I haven't though of.

Here's another thought..

We are assuming the "signature Honda sound" is from the use of some form of on the fly skip fire yes?
Quick and dirty.. to reduce power or when torque demand is reduced, skip fire operation keeps the throttles open while the combustion event is skipped instead (spark and injection event), all with the goal of reducing friction and pumping losses, therefore boosting power and efficiency. Now that sounds jolly good and I'm sure the mapping is an absolute nightmare, then when the ERS systems come into play as well... yeah.. insane what they can do.

But what about the phase where we are now re-applying torque demand (when a driver gets back onto the throttle). For example, if we assume the throttles remained open at a certain percentage (this could be 30%, it could be 100%) while ignition is cancelled, how would one get back onto power smoothly? If the most severe case is imagined, and the throttle/s is 100% open and combustion restarts, it'd be like a nasty clutch dump at full throttle. I'm assuming this is where a lot of testing, fine tuning and map work from Honda goes.
As for the torque hole in which Max speaks of, we do not know the severity whether it's a total lack of response or it's just dulled acceleration, but could this be related to skip fire when either off or at reduced throttle and the "mapping glitches" Honda try to sort out are focused on the the transitional state of skip fire getting back onto full fire when the throttle is pressed, smoothly? If they have an issue or they are being conservative with the transition, could that manifest as a throttle hole?

Just throwing the idea out there.

[gruntguru]

Skip-fire can be a very progressive torque control. There are a large number of combinations of fired and skipped cycles which can achieve any torque value from 0 - 100% while also ensuring all cylinders are carrying an equal share of the load. Some very simple examples would be:
- Fire 6, Skip 1. Reduces torque to 86%
- Fire 4, Skip 1. Reduces torque to 80%
- Fire 3, Skip 1, Fire 2 Skip 1. Reduces torque to 71%
- Fire 2, Skip 1, Fire 1 Skip 1. Reduces torque to 60%
- Fire 1, Skip 2, Fire 1 Skip 1. Reduces torque to 40%
- Fire 1, Skip 3, Fire 1 Skip 2. Reduces torque to 28%
- Fire 1, Skip 4, Reduces torque to 20%
- Fire 1, Skip 6, Reduces torque to 14%