Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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izzy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:53 pm
You don't think that's a generalised and slightly unfair assessment? Ferrari are ahead of Merc and Honda have matched Mercedes this year, if this dev. rate continues next year, they could overtake Mercedes to be the ones to catch Ferrari, yes they started lower, but the point is they are on a trajectory to hit highs faster than Mercedes now and Renault!? They started earlier, lobbied for this engine format and are languishing down the bottom with decent, but lets be realistic, last place power and DEFINITELY last place reliability.
Agree it would of been surprising if they didn't catch up for a company their size, and I believe it was expected to happen sooner or later, but regardless. They've been a huge story since 2015 that we have all followed for 1097 pages!!! (next best is 314!) and I'm so very glad they are now where they are.
Honda have been awesome this year and it's great for F1 as you say, tho i don't see why they're going to end up actually ahead? Afaics they've learned the lessons of F1, that you can't be too nationalistic you have to join in, take learning and expertise from anywhere, be flexible, drop the student programme and get professional.

Now they're in sunny Milton Keynes next to Red Bull and Mercedes with their 19 nationalities and they're in the loop, and it's the same loop as HPP/Ilmor which is how they've caught up. Renault are a bit of a different case with outsourcing everything but the others are all playing with the same things aren't they? Fuel, 3-d printing, combustion, but all so limited even down to the injectors and the number of sparks, and now with an extra fuel flow sensor and no oil in the intercooler

So I don't see why they won't all be really close in 2020, and mainly fine tuning the mapping, driveability and that kind of thing, and :idea: reliability...

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Of course nationalizm in know how and sceince is stupid thing but hiring some outside men only for an impermanent project and part ways after that is a wrong thing too. In this aproach you make a name with craft of others not with yours. I think this is a kind of lie.
So trying to do things with your own source is so meaningfull and important to show your engineer's level and your company's engineering level. But even in this condition they have to benefit from out sources to transfer new data and abilities into the company.
Fia works on budgets, standart parts. I think there must be obligations that force manufacturers to use their own engineers. For example in a formula 1 or wrc engine development team must be established from manufacturers own engineers, at least 60-70 per cent. They must be working for company 6-7-10 years.

Snorked
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_54357.html
Yasuaki Asaki, who is in charge of Honda F1's power unit development, said he felt a strong sense of crisis.

"With such a broken engine, development will not remain. Of course, it will not be a game. If you can not even test the car body, it will be troublesome to develop the car body. .

So Yasuaki Asaki makes an unusual decision to seek help from Honda Jet's engine development department. This was the first time Honda's aircraft development department was involved in Formula One.

"The atmosphere was that if we could use our technology in the world of F1 we ​​had never been involved in, we would be glad to do it. In general, everyone was flipping forward."

The structure of the aircraft turbofan jet engine was similar to that of the MGU-H. Naomi Strawashi says that when she first saw the MGU-H, she quickly found the cause of the trouble.

"When I saw the long shaft, the turbines on both sides, and the place to support the bearings, I felt honestly," Is this really going around? ", Says Naomi Strawina.

"When I heard that it would break in a race, it was our first impression," Oh, after all. "The

biggest cause was the bearings that supported the shaft. The aircraft division changed the position and number of bearings and adjusted the installation method at each location. In addition, improvements were made such as changing the thickness of the shaft depending on the location. This enabled the shaft to rotate stably.

Yasuaki Asaki says, "It was skeptical whether it would be fixed as soon as I asked the jet."

"It was incredible to fix it in one shot. I was surprised. Even though my company, I thought that it was amazing that our company had great technical skills."

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izzy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:09 am
Of course nationalizm in know how and sceince is stupid thing but hiring some outside men only for an impermanent project and part ways after that is a wrong thing too. In this aproach you make a name with craft of others not with yours. I think this is a kind of lie.
So trying to do things with your own source is so meaningfull and important to show your engineer's level and your company's engineering level. But even in this condition they have to benefit from out sources to transfer new data and abilities into the company.
Fia works on budgets, standart parts. I think there must be obligations that force manufacturers to use their own engineers. For example in a formula 1 or wrc engine development team must be established from manufacturers own engineers, at least 60-70 per cent. They must be working for company 6-7-10 years.
i think we just have to know, don't we? Then it's the Team and not the manufacturer or a nation. After all MercedesAMGF1 isn't actually Mercedes-Benz at all, Red Bull isn't Red Bull obviously or even Aston Martin, McLaren isn't Bruce it's a Bahrain fund, and Renault is Enstone. None of them tell us anything at all about whether buying their products might be a good idea, and a lot of the Ferrari story is how they are still quite tied into nationalism but their biggest success was with a German, South African, Frenchman and sundry Brits along with the Italians

But the teams represent excellence, aspirational human qualities, and we've seen HondaF1 having to learn the lessons about how to be so excellent, and part of that is being open to learning, international, humble in certain ways, and they've got there and it's great, about how F1 is so much more that going round in circles really quickly

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subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Snorked wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:41 pm
https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_54357.html
Yasuaki Asaki, who is in charge of Honda F1's power unit development, said he felt a strong sense of crisis.

"With such a broken engine, development will not remain. Of course, it will not be a game. If you can not even test the car body, it will be troublesome to develop the car body. .

So Yasuaki Asaki makes an unusual decision to seek help from Honda Jet's engine development department. This was the first time Honda's aircraft development department was involved in Formula One.

"The atmosphere was that if we could use our technology in the world of F1 we ​​had never been involved in, we would be glad to do it. In general, everyone was flipping forward."

The structure of the aircraft turbofan jet engine was similar to that of the MGU-H. Naomi Strawashi says that when she first saw the MGU-H, she quickly found the cause of the trouble.

"When I saw the long shaft, the turbines on both sides, and the place to support the bearings, I felt honestly," Is this really going around? ", Says Naomi Strawina.

"When I heard that it would break in a race, it was our first impression," Oh, after all. "The

biggest cause was the bearings that supported the shaft. The aircraft division changed the position and number of bearings and adjusted the installation method at each location. In addition, improvements were made such as changing the thickness of the shaft depending on the location. This enabled the shaft to rotate stably.

Yasuaki Asaki says, "It was skeptical whether it would be fixed as soon as I asked the jet."

"It was incredible to fix it in one shot. I was surprised. Even though my company, I thought that it was amazing that our company had great technical skills."
Quite frankly this surprises me that an engine builder doesn’t understand shaft dynamics and makes me think they better also look at their crankshaft to see what optimizations the aero department can bring! I believe Honda are a great engineering team but some of the areas they have been caught out in are really amateur. (I’m thinking the oil tank debacle when they first returned and now the H shaft).

nzjrs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:23 pm
some of the areas they have been caught out in are really amateur. (I’m thinking the oil tank debacle when they first returned and now the H shaft).
Why do you belive these topics, at the level and as close to the margins F1 teams operate at, are easy 'amateur'?

Bill
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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An mguh shaft rotation is up to 125000 rev per minute and temperatures can reach up to 1000 degrees Celsius. It's not easy technology why do you think Ferrari and Renault never to touched split turbo.is took Mercedes 2 years to make it work according to Andy cowell, Honda have to do it in public but ones they gave it to experienced staff they solved it on spot which is remarkable.

The problem with Honda is that they at first mismanaged the project they gave to kids with little experience and put few financial resources but ones they doubled the staff and matched the financial resources of Ferrari and Mercedes they have been a steam roller.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:30 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:23 pm
some of the areas they have been caught out in are really amateur. (I’m thinking the oil tank debacle when they first returned and now the H shaft).
Why do you belive these topics, at the level and as close to the margins F1 teams operate at, are easy 'amateur'?
At the time of the so called Honda ‘oil tank design debacle’ in testing of 2017, when considering Honda’s level and standings as a manufacturer I could not believe that Honda had managed to design manufacture and test approve an oil tank for use on track that lets the engine oil system down at on-track testing even on an out-lap. And I still do not believe-it (that the oil tank design was at fault) regardless of all that was written and said. Same opinion (of mine) goes for the 'H'-shaft.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:23 pm
Snorked wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:41 pm
https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_54357.html
Yasuaki Asaki, who is in charge of Honda F1's power unit development, said he felt a strong sense of crisis.

"With such a broken engine, development will not remain. Of course, it will not be a game. If you can not even test the car body, it will be troublesome to develop the car body. .

So Yasuaki Asaki makes an unusual decision to seek help from Honda Jet's engine development department. This was the first time Honda's aircraft development department was involved in Formula One.

"The atmosphere was that if we could use our technology in the world of F1 we ​​had never been involved in, we would be glad to do it. In general, everyone was flipping forward."

The structure of the aircraft turbofan jet engine was similar to that of the MGU-H. Naomi Strawashi says that when she first saw the MGU-H, she quickly found the cause of the trouble.

"When I saw the long shaft, the turbines on both sides, and the place to support the bearings, I felt honestly," Is this really going around? ", Says Naomi Strawina.

"When I heard that it would break in a race, it was our first impression," Oh, after all. "The

biggest cause was the bearings that supported the shaft. The aircraft division changed the position and number of bearings and adjusted the installation method at each location. In addition, improvements were made such as changing the thickness of the shaft depending on the location. This enabled the shaft to rotate stably.

Yasuaki Asaki says, "It was skeptical whether it would be fixed as soon as I asked the jet."

"It was incredible to fix it in one shot. I was surprised. Even though my company, I thought that it was amazing that our company had great technical skills."
Quite frankly this surprises me that an engine builder doesn’t understand shaft dynamics and makes me think they better also look at their crankshaft to see what optimizations the aero department can bring! I believe Honda are a great engineering team but some of the areas they have been caught out in are really amateur. (I’m thinking the oil tank debacle when they first returned and now the H shaft).
Well, think about what it entails. You're taking a long shaft and you have to make it work in a matter of months(the lead time between the decision to implement it in 2016, and 2017 winter testing.) Of course you're going to have teething issues. It took quite a bit of testing to understand the resonance in the shaft, which was what was destroying the bearings. It took repositioning the bearings, and changing shaft thickness in areas to reduce the destructive resonant frequencies in the speed ranges the turbine had to operate at. That takes a bit of time to sort out. Mercedes had a much longer lead time, and in the end Honda managed to solve the puzzle in about a year and half, or just over 30% faster than Mercedes could.

Let's see how fast Ferrari can solve it :) Let's see if Renault waits until parts are standardized before going split turbo, wouldn't that be something.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:43 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:30 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:23 pm
some of the areas they have been caught out in are really amateur. (I’m thinking the oil tank debacle when they first returned and now the H shaft).
Why do you belive these topics, at the level and as close to the margins F1 teams operate at, are easy 'amateur'?
At the time of the so called Honda ‘oil tank design debacle’ in testing of 2017, when considering Honda’s level and standings as a manufacturer I could not believe that Honda had managed to design manufacture and test approve an oil tank for use on track that lets the engine oil system down at on-track testing even on an out-lap. And I still do not believe-it (that the oil tank design was at fault) regardless of all that was written and said. Same opinion (of mine) goes for the 'H'-shaft.
Honestly, part of that was McLaren refusing to give any extra space for the PU. So the tank was designed with an unusual shape and the air intake was flattened, the engine for the following year for Toro Rosso was given more space and this alleviated both issues, Honda even credited the extra space allowed for better manifold design and intake characteristics bumping up the power figures. Literally look at the RA617H and RA618H (in the Toro Rosso) side by side. Clear advantages on the later engine and actually if you look at reference points, you can tell they made CoG improvements by lowering the PU overall height.. Again it's a shame we didn't get to see the 619 this year ...

Image

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:36 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:23 pm
Snorked wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:41 pm
https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_54357.html

Quite frankly this surprises me that an engine builder doesn’t understand shaft dynamics and makes me think they better also look at their crankshaft to see what optimizations the aero department can bring! I believe Honda are a great engineering team but some of the areas they have been caught out in are really amateur. (I’m thinking the oil tank debacle when they first returned and now the H shaft).
Well, think about what it entails. You're taking a long shaft and you have to make it work in a matter of months(the lead time between the decision to implement it in 2016, and 2017 winter testing.) Of course you're going to have teething issues. It took quite a bit of testing to understand the resonance in the shaft, which was what was destroying the bearings. It took repositioning the bearings, and changing shaft thickness in areas to reduce the destructive resonant frequencies in the speed ranges the turbine had to operate at. That takes a bit of time to sort out. Mercedes had a much longer lead time, and in the end Honda managed to solve the puzzle in about a year and half, or just over 30% faster than Mercedes could.

Let's see how fast Ferrari can solve it :) Let's see if Renault waits until parts are standardized before going split turbo, wouldn't that be something.
And who told you that FERRARI and Renault will go for split turbo?.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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That something went terribly wrong with the engines prepared for winter testing in 2017 was a fact, one of the engines having ran into problems even on the out-lap. The problem for those following the sports, at least for some that carefully sieves what is pushed-out in the media as being the cause of the problem is believing what is pushed-out into the media. Honda had been designing developing testing and successfully racing formula one engine dry-sump systems which involves an oil-tank for 55 years up to 2017 engine problems. Yet Yusuke Hasegawa said at the time on Honda’s f1 website “the oil tank is one of the biggest items – we have a rig (testing rig) for the oil tank but we cannot recreate the same types of g-forces and conditions as in the car”. As I said, I did not believe what was said at the time.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:10 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:36 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:23 pm


Quite frankly this surprises me that an engine builder doesn’t understand shaft dynamics and makes me think they better also look at their crankshaft to see what optimizations the aero department can bring! I believe Honda are a great engineering team but some of the areas they have been caught out in are really amateur. (I’m thinking the oil tank debacle when they first returned and now the H shaft).
Well, think about what it entails. You're taking a long shaft and you have to make it work in a matter of months(the lead time between the decision to implement it in 2016, and 2017 winter testing.) Of course you're going to have teething issues. It took quite a bit of testing to understand the resonance in the shaft, which was what was destroying the bearings. It took repositioning the bearings, and changing shaft thickness in areas to reduce the destructive resonant frequencies in the speed ranges the turbine had to operate at. That takes a bit of time to sort out. Mercedes had a much longer lead time, and in the end Honda managed to solve the puzzle in about a year and half, or just over 30% faster than Mercedes could.

Let's see how fast Ferrari can solve it :) Let's see if Renault waits until parts are standardized before going split turbo, wouldn't that be something.
And who told you that FERRARI and Renault will go for split turbo?.
They don't have to go for a split turbo. No one is forcing them, it would be a good idea if they want to win more races. There is more aero performance to be found with the split turbo setup, than the current layout.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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To me it looks like neither Renault nor FERRARI believed that there was or is any more aero performance to be found with a split-turbo set-up than their current lay-out, at least for the past six years.

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subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:30 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:23 pm
some of the areas they have been caught out in are really amateur. (I’m thinking the oil tank debacle when they first returned and now the H shaft).
Why do you belive these topics, at the level and as close to the margins F1 teams operate at, are easy 'amateur'?
Because with all of their technical ability they fell down twice (oil tank and H shaft) on the basics. Regarding the H, a big company like Honda should not have divisions operating in isolation, there needs to be cross pollination of the engineering teams (and I am sure they do have it but for whatever reason it came too late). While some think this is cutting edge and hard to solve, it was in their own article that shows that it just took exposing it to another Honda division who understood the issue immediately and solved it with the first try. I hardly think that classifies as cutting edge problem solving...