Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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daniellammers wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:09 pm
It only did 500 km?
That's not even enough for 1 weekend is it?
There must be something wrong. Honda pu was far more reliable than that on the track last year. They just kept safe way and changed PU when PU finished safe reliable life and of course with an update almost everytime.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:58 pm
daniellammers wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:09 pm
It only did 500 km?
That's not even enough for 1 weekend is it?
There must be something wrong. Honda pu was far more reliable than that on the track last year. They just kept safe way and changed PU when PU finished safe reliable life and of course with an update almost everytime.
Nothing was wrong.
Last year, the spec 1 engine for 2019 was not yet completely finished and had only run 500km on the test bench. They then started the season with a previous spec, which was also developed during the winter. The 500km engine then ran longer on the test bench and was used as the second engine after 3 or 4 races.
I think it was Asaki who recently told that in a Japanese interview.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:18 pm
etusch wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:58 pm
daniellammers wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:09 pm


It only did 500 km?
That's not even enough for 1 weekend is it?
There must be something wrong. Honda pu was far more reliable than that on the track last year. They just kept safe way and changed PU when PU finished safe reliable life and of course with an update almost everytime.
Nothing was wrong.
Last year, the spec 1 engine for 2019 was not yet completely finished and had only run 500km on the test bench. They then started the season with a previous spec, which was also developed during the winter. The 500km engine then ran longer on the test bench and was used as the second engine after 3 or 4 races.
I think it was Asaki who recently told that in a Japanese interview.
Logical. I tought it were said for first pu.

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:40 pm
After last turn he slowed the car.
Nobody talked about that if they are burninge fuel in exhaust pipe before the tubine of turbo to spin it like jet engine?
In pre-hybrid time, they used to blip the throttle during downshifts, like an automatic heal and toe technique. Those bangs were loud.

With hybrid they use mgu-k for those blips. The bangs are gone since, but maybe Honda needed to re-introduce it, to assist the mgu-k in blipping. OR, they use the ICE for blipping during qually mode and let the mgu-k do more harvesting.

During braking, the turbopressure is low, slowing down combustion. So blipping during braking, can cause some unburned fuel to combust in the exhaust.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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After @godlameroso's post, I started to think these
During braking they can cease combusting fuel in the cylinder and injecting it at exhaust strok to send fuel to the exhaust and burn there. May be burning can start in the end of exhaust stroke too. I don't know. Hope someone come up with good explanation.
Last edited by etusch on Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:10 am
After @godlameroso's post I started to think these
During braking they can cease combusting in the cylinder and injecting fuel later than normal time to send fuel to exhaust and burn there. May be burning can start in exhaust stroke. I don't know. Hope someone come up with good explanation.
Sounds like Honda can afford to waste a lot of fuel while on track.

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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If overtaking is harder this year, anything can be afforded for a better Q lap.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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It is not matter how much fuel comsumed if you still be able to finish race easily. What matter is what is in return when fuel comsumed.
And when we look frequency of bangs, it can not be consumed much fuel, of course if there is something like I said.
But if there is and if it keep turbo at higher speed to produce energy because of more powerful flow and lower electric usage to keep turbo at (or close ) needed speed it need to be something good.

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:17 pm
It is not matter how much fuel comsumed if you still be able to finish race easily. What matter is what is in return when fuel comsumed.
And when we look frequency of bangs, it can not be consumed much fuel, of course if there is something like I said.
But if there is and if it keep turbo at higher speed to produce energy because of more powerful flow and lower electric usage to keep turbo at (or close ) needed speed it need to be something good.
It's possible they are just at a stage where they can afford to use some fuel to dump into the exhaust to keep the turbo spooled without expending any electrical energy on the MGU-H to keep it spooled. Theoretically, they could also have the MGU-H swap to harvest mode off throttle (when the bangs occur) and the fuel dumps spin the turbo and in turn, the MGU-H, which would allow it to recover more energy.

So they may be at a point where the ICE is efficient enough that they have plenty of excess fuel during the race. So it makes sense that they could utilise full fuel flow while off throttle to cause the bangs (antilag effect) andspin the turbo and H unit to generate electrical energy.

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Marti_EF3
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:43 pm
etusch wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:17 pm
It is not matter how much fuel comsumed if you still be able to finish race easily. What matter is what is in return when fuel comsumed.
And when we look frequency of bangs, it can not be consumed much fuel, of course if there is something like I said.
But if there is and if it keep turbo at higher speed to produce energy because of more powerful flow and lower electric usage to keep turbo at (or close ) needed speed it need to be something good.
It's possible they are just at a stage where they can afford to use some fuel to dump into the exhaust to keep the turbo spooled without expending any electrical energy on the MGU-H to keep it spooled. Theoretically, they could also have the MGU-H swap to harvest mode off throttle (when the bangs occur) and the fuel dumps spin the turbo and in turn, the MGU-H, which would allow it to recover more energy.

So they may be at a point where the ICE is efficient enough that they have plenty of excess fuel during the race. So it makes sense that they could utilise full fuel flow while off throttle to cause the bangs (antilag effect) andspin the turbo and H unit to generate electrical energy.
The question is, will the turbo hold up the necessary amount of races if any sort of antilag is used?

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Well the rattattataattaa sound is the ICE firing only 3 cylinders under breaking. The deactivated cylinders could be pumping just air, cooling the turbocharger.

Also, the F2 cars are spitting real flames almost half of all their races. The turbo’s are much more durable and antilag more controlled nowadays.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Marti_EF3 wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:06 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:43 pm
etusch wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:17 pm
It is not matter how much fuel comsumed if you still be able to finish race easily. What matter is what is in return when fuel comsumed.
And when we look frequency of bangs, it can not be consumed much fuel, of course if there is something like I said.
But if there is and if it keep turbo at higher speed to produce energy because of more powerful flow and lower electric usage to keep turbo at (or close ) needed speed it need to be something good.
It's possible they are just at a stage where they can afford to use some fuel to dump into the exhaust to keep the turbo spooled without expending any electrical energy on the MGU-H to keep it spooled. Theoretically, they could also have the MGU-H swap to harvest mode off throttle (when the bangs occur) and the fuel dumps spin the turbo and in turn, the MGU-H, which would allow it to recover more energy.

So they may be at a point where the ICE is efficient enough that they have plenty of excess fuel during the race. So it makes sense that they could utilise full fuel flow while off throttle to cause the bangs (antilag effect) andspin the turbo and H unit to generate electrical energy.
The question is, will the turbo hold up the necessary amount of races if any sort of antilag is used?
Here Honda jet department can make more difference

haza
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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What a brutal sound that engine makes on the downshift

TNTHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:21 pm
Marti_EF3 wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:06 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:43 pm


It's possible they are just at a stage where they can afford to use some fuel to dump into the exhaust to keep the turbo spooled without expending any electrical energy on the MGU-H to keep it spooled. Theoretically, they could also have the MGU-H swap to harvest mode off throttle (when the bangs occur) and the fuel dumps spin the turbo and in turn, the MGU-H, which would allow it to recover more energy.

So they may be at a point where the ICE is efficient enough that they have plenty of excess fuel during the race. So it makes sense that they could utilise full fuel flow while off throttle to cause the bangs (antilag effect) andspin the turbo and H unit to generate electrical energy.
The question is, will the turbo hold up the necessary amount of races if any sort of antilag is used?
Here Honda jet department can make more difference
Interesting discussion. What I find puzzling, if it indeed is fuel burned during exhaust stroke or outside the combustion chamber, how do you come to such high sound power levels of the bangs? Between exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe there is still the turbocharger and (if i understand it correctly) the mgu-h dampening the pressure pulses to a large extent (probably at least 20 dB). From a noise emission perspective one would expect that these bangs are produced after the mgu-h, but then the benefit energy wise is even more puzzling.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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TNTHead wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:28 pm
What I find puzzling, if it indeed is fuel burned ...outside the combustion chamber, how do you come to such high sound power levels of the bangs?
Sorry that I can't provide the answer, but it's certainly typical that the sound is loud and gunfire-like.... it is common for many types of racing cars (and indeed some street cars with obnoxious "sport mode" engine maps! albeit now banned under new WLTP noise regulations).