Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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What usually happens when running on kerbs is that grip fluctuates rapidly causing oscillations in road-load which can set off driveline resonances (which tend to be quite low frequency).

The important aspect of this kind of torisonal response is that it is not caused by engine torque fluctuations and therefore can't easily be replicated on a dyno (unless it is measured and then "played-back" which is not a predictive method i.e. can only be replicated once it has happened on-track).
How much TQ does it make though?

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PlatinumZealot
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Can they build a vibration generating motor on the dyno? Like something that works in 2 axes. Thrust and torsion. To feed back into the engine. Maybe something hydraulic.

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Pyrone89
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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:12 am
Can they build a vibration generating motor on the dyno? Like something that works in 2 axes. Thrust and torsion. To feed back into the engine. Maybe something hydraulic.
Think it is very hard to exactly predict and recreate the frequencies of the vibration of the real thing.
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

Revs84
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Red Bull drivers Max Verstappen and Alex Albon will re-use their engines from the Formula 1 season opener this weekend, as Honda has countermeasures to avoid repeat electric problems.

Verstappen and Albon retired from the Austrian Grand Prix with what Honda said were electrical issues, leaving Red Bull with zero points from a race both drivers felt they were in contention to win at one point – although Albon had already dropped back after a clash with Lewis Hamilton.

Red Bull said parts had been sent back to the UK and Japan for analysis and Honda has now confirmed neither engine suffered damage to warrant a change for this weekend’s Styrian Grand Prix.

It has also been able to take steps in the short period between the back-to-back Red Bull Ring races to try to prevent a repeat.

Honda F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe said both problems last Sunday were electrical “but caused by different issues”, with Verstappen’s related to the flywheel.

“We have been analysing both these matters together with the teams and we have put countermeasures in place for this weekend,” he said.

“As our power units do not have any damage caused by those issues, Max and Alex will use their same PUs this weekend.

“This weekend, we must aim to finish the race with all four cars and achieve a good result with them.”

Honda brought a new engine specification to the season opener which is understood to have developed good gains.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-ha ... ne-issues/
Last edited by Revs84 on Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

nzjrs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:12 am
Can they build a vibration generating motor on the dyno? Like something that works in 2 axes. Thrust and torsion. To feed back into the engine. Maybe something hydraulic.
I dont think it's vibration of the power unit per se. My understanding from other threads (c.f. flywheel) is that it is induced resonance or vibration in the whole drivetrain, which would almost necessitate a full car-in-the-loop test bed.

(oops, just read, basically what mudflap said)

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Mudflap
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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:12 am
Can they build a vibration generating motor on the dyno? Like something that works in 2 axes. Thrust and torsion. To feed back into the engine. Maybe something hydraulic.
A transient dyno can already generate torsional vibration. AVL has gearbox dynos that can replicate ICE excitation well into the kilohertz range.

Why would you need thrust though ?

By the way the only electrical issue I can think of in relation to the flywheel (which is really just the clutch basket rather than the traditional big old lump) is to do with the engine speed sensor.
How much TQ does it make though?

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:12 am
Can they build a vibration generating motor on the dyno? Like something that works in 2 axes. Thrust and torsion. To feed back into the engine. Maybe something hydraulic.
‘Vibration generating motor’. At around the year 2000 I remember reading an article (race engine technology – Ross Brawn gets a new toy) about FERRARI acquiring three very special (at the time) electric motors designed and manufactured by an ex-USSR electrical engineer that had set-up business in the US. These three electrical motors formed the basis of a (very special at the time) transmission test rig. The main drive motor was said to be a 1000hp motor capable of running at 18k RPM and replicating the back than FERRARI engine output characteristics including its produced vibrations. The other two electrical motors, one each at the output end of the two drive-shafts were said to be capable replicating the rear driven wheel loads including wheel/road shocks, running at a maximum of 2500 RPM.

ispano6
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During the suspension period, the FIA and all the power unit manufacturers agreed to have a shutdown period,” Yamamoto-san explains. “So we did the shutdown in our factory as well and had to stop development. That meant we had a bit of a change in our development schedule compared to what we originally planned. But we recreated the plan and prepared for the restart in July.

We do the main development in Sakura, but because of the shutdown we had to change the development schedule. Due to the regulation change after the Covid-19 pandemic the FIA banned power unit updates during the season, so the first spec that we used in Austria we have to use until the end of the year.
...
It’s clear that the incidents that Max and Alex had were different issues, but we can run the same PUs again this weekend and have put countermeasures in place after our investigations, so hopefully at the same venue we can see the benefit of that.
...
We originally planned a number of updates during the season, so we had to change that plan and try and put everything together before the Austrian Grand Prix which was the main challenge.

We will work on reliability if we think we need to, but because we cannot do anything about performance we are now focusing our development onto the 2021 power unit, which will be the same as everybody else. That’s the attitude we will take from now on.
https://en.hondaracingf1.com/insights/Y ... Track.html

fellowhoodlums
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With no performance upgrades this season and only one during next the focus as we know will all be on reliability.

What's interesting is that reliability improvements can be used to increase performance. Simplistically, if you improve the tolerances of a part to withstand higher loads, temperatures etc you can push that part further.

Everything now will be focused on the engine software to exploit what they have and push levels further which would need parts to cope.....reliable.

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etusch
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reliability updates will bring performance as we see here from Mercedes. But if it were not bring performance with it, agian, fia could not police updates. In this situation it is just a rule on the paper if someone has intention to breach it.
By the way we know who need it more

Revs84
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According to this article, Honda seem to be indicating that neither Albon's nor Verstappen's issues were related to PU.

Additionally, it seems that Albon's car didn't stop. It was retired due to an issue seen in the data logging.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/albons-d ... nda-fault/

timbo
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Very strange noise from Verstappen's car, like TC.

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Pyrone89
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timbo wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:38 pm
Very strange noise from Verstappen's car, like TC.
That is forbidden and not possible due to the spec ECU. And as you can see he has massive issues getting the power down unlike the Mercedes. Honda needs to work on their rain mapping for the 2020 engine.

What you are hearing is most likely wheel spin even in 3rd gear.
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

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Marti_EF3
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Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:15 pm
timbo wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:38 pm
Very strange noise from Verstappen's car, like TC.
That is forbidden and not possible due to the spec ECU. And as you can see he has massive issues getting the power down unlike the Mercedes. Honda needs to work on their rain mapping for the 2020 engine.

What you are hearing is most likely wheel spin even in 3rd gear.
Suspension plays a role here too...

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Pyrone89
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Marti_EF3 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:16 pm
Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:15 pm
timbo wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:38 pm
Very strange noise from Verstappen's car, like TC.
That is forbidden and not possible due to the spec ECU. And as you can see he has massive issues getting the power down unlike the Mercedes. Honda needs to work on their rain mapping for the 2020 engine.

What you are hearing is most likely wheel spin even in 3rd gear.
Suspension plays a role here too...
Indeed, but that should be in favor of high rake cars which tend to have a more spring room at the back.
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.