Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
timbo
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:15 pm
timbo wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:38 pm
Very strange noise from Verstappen's car, like TC.
That is forbidden and not possible due to the spec ECU. And as you can see he has massive issues getting the power down unlike the Mercedes. Honda needs to work on their rain mapping for the 2020 engine.

What you are hearing is most likely wheel spin even in 3rd gear.
I know it is impossible, that's why I'm puzzled. It did sound like cylinder cutting though. Maybe they cut ignition on part throttle?

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Pyrone89
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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timbo wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:30 pm
Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:15 pm
timbo wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:38 pm
Very strange noise from Verstappen's car, like TC.
That is forbidden and not possible due to the spec ECU. And as you can see he has massive issues getting the power down unlike the Mercedes. Honda needs to work on their rain mapping for the 2020 engine.

What you are hearing is most likely wheel spin even in 3rd gear.
I know it is impossible, that's why I'm puzzled. It did sound like cylinder cutting though. Maybe they cut ignition on part throttle?
Possibly a wet setting
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Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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timbo wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:30 pm
Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:15 pm
timbo wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:38 pm
Very strange noise from Verstappen's car, like TC.
That is forbidden and not possible due to the spec ECU. And as you can see he has massive issues getting the power down unlike the Mercedes. Honda needs to work on their rain mapping for the 2020 engine.

What you are hearing is most likely wheel spin even in 3rd gear.
I know it is impossible, that's why I'm puzzled. It did sound like cylinder cutting though. Maybe they cut ignition on part throttle?
This is known behaviour from Honda. Part throttle there is plenty of cylinder cutting going on. Wet conditions they probably make it more apparent.

As for throttle mapping. Max has already spoken highly of how tractable the throttle is with the Honda compared to the Renault. So I don't think the mapping is the issue.

Watching the onboard cams, power down looks fine. Renault and Fez powered cars have mor eissues coming out of 3 especially.

Interesting point to note... Before Lewis' last lap, Bono comes on the radio and says "for this last one, let's have magic on, switch magic to on", then watching, his power down out/traction out of corners was fantastic! Borderline insane for the conditions!

Edax
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:35 am
timbo wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:30 pm
Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:15 pm

...
....
This is known behaviour from Honda. Part throttle there is plenty of cylinder cutting going on. Wet conditions they probably make it more apparent.

[snip]
Makes sense, I can imagine that he used a higher gear and lower revs than normal. Could it have been anti stall? That sounds quite similar.

If it was some form of rudimentary traction control it wasn’t terribly effective.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I fear the season is going to be tough since Honda is not allowed to upgrade the performance of the engine. That means whatever advantage Mercedes has is unsurmountable this year. At least the performance of the power unit isn't as dreadful as Ferrari's is this year.
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McMika98
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:34 pm
I fear the season is going to be tough since Honda is not allowed to upgrade the performance of the engine. That means whatever advantage Mercedes has is unsurmountable this year. At least the performance of the power unit isn't as dreadful as Ferrari's is this year.
Renault came with same engine as last year and improved reliability no extra hp and yet Norris was a tenth of Max in quali. People claimed Honda was quicker than Renault last year, so how come Honda cars can't compete with new upgraded engines. The Merc aren't that powerful than the Renault.

epo
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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McMika98 wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:55 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:34 pm
I fear the season is going to be tough since Honda is not allowed to upgrade the performance of the engine. That means whatever advantage Mercedes has is unsurmountable this year. At least the performance of the power unit isn't as dreadful as Ferrari's is this year.
Renault came with same engine as last year and improved reliability no extra hp and yet Norris was a tenth of Max in quali. People claimed Honda was quicker than Renault last year, so how come Honda cars can't compete with new upgraded engines. The Merc aren't that powerful than the Renault.
Renault engine only has qualifying power and can hardly be used during the race, that was already shown in 2019.
Without it power is for sure lower then Honda, but the boost mode is pretty good.
The problem with RB and Honda is in the ERS department, I believe that is still open for development and change this year, not sure though. But even so that isn't an easy change.

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:34 pm
I fear the season is going to be tough since Honda is not allowed to upgrade the performance of the engine. That means whatever advantage Mercedes has is unsurmountable this year. At least the performance of the power unit isn't as dreadful as Ferrari's is this year.
You think maybe, as Marco keeps claiming, they are running very conservative?
As they become confident they can probably wind it up considerably, especially if they are allowed reliability tweaks for any problem that shows up when it is stretched.
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rogazilla
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:06 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:34 pm
I fear the season is going to be tough since Honda is not allowed to upgrade the performance of the engine. That means whatever advantage Mercedes has is unsurmountable this year. At least the performance of the power unit isn't as dreadful as Ferrari's is this year.
You think maybe, as Marco keeps claiming, they are running very conservative?
As they become confident they can probably wind it up considerably, especially if they are allowed reliability tweaks for any problem that shows up when it is stretched.
It is likely, we know they have to change their update plan due to regulation change. Parts may be on the PU that's not tested in Barcelona being used first time.

epo
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:06 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:34 pm
I fear the season is going to be tough since Honda is not allowed to upgrade the performance of the engine. That means whatever advantage Mercedes has is unsurmountable this year. At least the performance of the power unit isn't as dreadful as Ferrari's is this year.
You think maybe, as Marco keeps claiming, they are running very conservative?
As they become confident they can probably wind it up considerably, especially if they are allowed reliability tweaks for any problem that shows up when it is stretched.
Think he meant they rather have more power and take grid penalties then be conservative and use max three engines. I kinda agree as it's looking now they will not be a wc.

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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epo wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:24 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:06 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:34 pm
I fear the season is going to be tough since Honda is not allowed to upgrade the performance of the engine. That means whatever advantage Mercedes has is unsurmountable this year. At least the performance of the power unit isn't as dreadful as Ferrari's is this year.
You think maybe, as Marco keeps claiming, they are running very conservative?
As they become confident they can probably wind it up considerably, especially if they are allowed reliability tweaks for any problem that shows up when it is stretched.
Think he meant they rather have more power and take grid penalties then be conservative and use max three engines. I kinda agree as it's looking now they will not be a wc.
I mean I was thinking there is possibly far more power in that current engine than is being used, so rather than actually swapping metal bits could they just run it 'a little less safe'. 1 or 2% would be a fair slice for free.
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Alexf1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Think so. Tanabe recently said he first wants to squeeze everything out of this concept before start developing another one. That could indicate that the higher engine modes can be used longer as soon as they verified this engine spec on a low altitude track. Hope is on Hungary then.

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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But even that extra 1-2% will most likely require running a few more engines to the end of their expected life on the dyno to prove out the new duty cycle and that will eat into the limited dyno time, impacting development for next year.

DNFs are costly this season and RBR have already bagged a couple in the first 2 races.

I think Marko should mind his own bussiness and leave Honda to it.
How much TQ does it make though?

epo
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:42 pm
But even that extra 1-2% will most likely require running a few more engines to the end of their expected life on the dyno to prove out the new duty cycle and that will eat into the limited dyno time, impacting development for next year.

DNFs are costly this season and RBR have already bagged a couple in the first 2 races.

I think Marko should mind his own bussiness and leave Honda to it.
It's his car so his business. I rather have fun races where Max could challenge Hamilon then see RB driving a slower power mode in no-mans land. But yeah they will sort it out ( at least I hope ;) )
Also not sure if it will make a difference, Mercedes will have that 1/2% also, so more is needed unfortunately.
Maybe hope for some magic fuel..
Last edited by epo on Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:41 pm
Think so. Tanabe recently said he first wants to squeeze everything out of this concept before start developing another one. That could indicate that the higher engine modes can be used longer as soon as they verified this engine spec on a low altitude track. Hope is on Hungary then.
They said that they worked on that. If they succeed what they worked on, we can see more exiting race at least and welcome what we see at last two races.