Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:58 am
I think Mercedes has a very robust K unit this season.
Every one of the manufacturers can reach the 120kw max allowed for the mguk, and probably the minimum mass allowed too, so "robust" is in reference to what? Efficiency?

End of the straights, all the PUs should be harvesting enough from the mguh to sustain the mguk(and possibly feed the battery as well), so why would the Hondas need to turn off the mguk sooner? Mguk not efficient enough? Were they fuel saving more(lift and coast)?

Is there a maximum power for the mguh, and if not what do we think they are producing at maximum boost in race mode?

These questions are for anyone.

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PlatinumZealot
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Wazari wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:58 am
I apologize in advance that I am going to try and answer your PM's here rather than individually.

First, I am fine and I would like to thank all of you for asking and hope all of you are safe and healthy.

I am a little disappointed with this season. IMHO, Honda took a very conservative approach by using the "Spec 1.1" PU to open the season. I believe Spec 2 which is what I really wanted to see run this season with all the "goodies" would have been ready to go by this time. I realize that track time was severely hampered by what is going this season but again IMO would have liked to seen it run at Austria. Although I have not seen any numbers from race 2, after analyzing telemetry from race 1, I believe all 4 PU's are very close with regards to power and I don't buy this 35 HP gap between Mercedes and Renault nor the 20 HP gap with Honda. However, I think Mercedes has a very robust K unit this season.

One thing I did notice at testing in Barcelona was that the heavy ozone odor from Ferrari's exhaust was gone which was very prominent in the second half of last season.
Wazari! Wow. Ozone generator Was one omy suggestions last year after learning that Ozone improves combustion stability. Ozone generators are quite simple and work with compressed air, which is available after the compressor... I believe i did some power claculations... This actually can be considered as auxiliary electrical power... So excess generstion or battery store can actually be used on it.. Anyway.. Enough rambling from me, but nice to know my ozone suspicion wasn't so crazy after all.
The other way ozone might be present is through palsma ... Maybe ozone is not pumped into the engine but is a side product.. :?:

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just to clarify here, this only is about upgrades during the season?
So a team could upgrade the ICE in between 2020 and 21 and then once more during the 21 season? Or just once per calendar year?

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Wouter
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MtthsMlw wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:37 pm
Just to clarify here, this only is about upgrades during the season?
So a team could upgrade the ICE in between 2020 and 21 and then once more during the 21 season? Or just once per calendar year?
Just once per calendar year.

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Blackout
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:58 am
I apologize in advance that I am going to try and answer your PM's here rather than individually.

First, I am fine and I would like to thank all of you for asking and hope all of you are safe and healthy.

I am a little disappointed with this season. IMHO, Honda took a very conservative approach by using the "Spec 1.1" PU to open the season. I believe Spec 2 which is what I really wanted to see run this season with all the "goodies" would have been ready to go by this time. I realize that track time was severely hampered by what is going this season but again IMO would have liked to seen it run at Austria. Although I have not seen any numbers from race 2, after analyzing telemetry from race 1, I believe all 4 PU's are very close with regards to power and I don't buy this 35 HP gap between Mercedes and Renault nor the 20 HP gap with Honda. However, I think Mercedes has a very robust K unit this season.

One thing I did notice at testing in Barcelona was that the heavy ozone odor from Ferrari's exhaust was gone which was very prominent in the second half of last season.
Gasly said in french tv that the Honda produces 1050hp :-k

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godlameroso
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1050 - 160 = 890hp from ICE + MGU-H combined. Which means ICE is putting out around 760 - 810 hp on its own, depending on how much the MGU-H is contributing.

Mind you those 1050hp are probably only doable for a handful of straights.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Jaisonas
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Tanabe-san: From a PU point of view, we will be more aware of cooling than in Austria as this is usually one of the hottest races of the season. We got pole position here with Max last year, and we have a good feeling for the track. However, we faced tough competition in the two Austrian weekends and it was clear that we do not yet match the pace of the team that has dominated this hybrid power era. We are now focusing on our preparation in order to maximise the performance from our PU as a package.
https://en.hondaracingf1.com/races/2020 ... -prix.html

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henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:51 pm
1050 - 160 = 890hp from ICE + MGU-H combined. Which means ICE is putting out around 760 - 810 hp on its own, depending on how much the MGU-H is contributing.

Mind you those 1050hp are probably only doable for a handful of straights.
I think you meant to say “ICE + MGU-K“.

I think that in the max power mode the MGU-H is a consumer of power not contributor. The ICE is supercharged with the the compressor driven by the MGU-H (electrical Energy from the ES) and the turbine (kinetic Energy from the exhaust).

Depending on LHV of the fuel this puts the ICE crank power (890hp) at around 50-52% of the energy available in the fuel. Since the compressor is driven in part by an external source this is not the same as the ICE efficiency.
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godlameroso
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henry wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:42 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:51 pm
1050 - 160 = 890hp from ICE + MGU-H combined. Which means ICE is putting out around 760 - 810 hp on its own, depending on how much the MGU-H is contributing.

Mind you those 1050hp are probably only doable for a handful of straights.
I think you meant to say “ICE + MGU-K“.

I think that in the max power mode the MGU-H is a consumer of power not contributor. The ICE is supercharged with the the compressor driven by the MGU-H (electrical Energy from the ES) and the turbine (kinetic Energy from the exhaust).

Depending on LHV of the fuel this puts the ICE crank power (890hp) at around 50-52% of the energy available in the fuel. Since the compressor is driven in part by an external source this is not the same as the ICE efficiency.
No, the MGU-H does contribute. Powering the turbo takes energy from the crankshaft. Remember that the turbine is an obstruction at the end of the exhaust runners. That obstruction creates backpressure adding pumping losses to the crankshaft. Those pumping losses are working against the crankshaft robbing it of power. By removing that pumping loss with the MGU-H, the power lost driving the turbine returns to the crankshaft.

A belt driven super charger and exhaust gas driver super charger both impart a parasitic load on the engine reducing it's true potential. There's no such thing as a free lunch in physics. Using the power of the MGU-H reduces this parasitic drag, therefore we can think of the MGU-H as adding power to the crankshaft, just not directly. Because it's not direct there's some inefficiency in the energy conversion, so 100hp from the MGU-H doesn't necessarily equal to 100hp extra at the crank. You can get closer if you improve the efficiency in your energy conversion, IE the MGU-H can add more power to the crank if you have a less efficient turbine that robs the engine of more power in all circumstances.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:36 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:42 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:51 pm
1050 - 160 = 890hp from ICE + MGU-H combined. Which means ICE is putting out around 760 - 810 hp on its own, depending on how much the MGU-H is contributing.

Mind you those 1050hp are probably only doable for a handful of straights.
I think you meant to say “ICE + MGU-K“.

I think that in the max power mode the MGU-H is a consumer of power not contributor. The ICE is supercharged with the the compressor driven by the MGU-H (electrical Energy from the ES) and the turbine (kinetic Energy from the exhaust).

Depending on LHV of the fuel this puts the ICE crank power (890hp) at around 50-52% of the energy available in the fuel. Since the compressor is driven in part by an external source this is not the same as the ICE efficiency.
No, the MGU-H does contribute. Powering the turbo takes energy from the crankshaft. Remember that the turbine is an obstruction at the end of the exhaust runners. That obstruction creates backpressure adding pumping losses to the crankshaft. Those pumping losses are working against the crankshaft robbing it of power. By removing that pumping loss with the MGU-H, the power lost driving the turbine returns to the crankshaft.

A belt driven super charger and exhaust gas driver super charger both impart a parasitic load on the engine reducing it's true potential. There's no such thing as a free lunch in physics. Using the power of the MGU-H reduces this parasitic drag, therefore we can think of the MGU-H as adding power to the crankshaft, just not directly. Because it's not direct there's some inefficiency in the energy conversion, so 100hp from the MGU-H doesn't necessarily equal to 100hp extra at the crank. You can get closer if you improve the efficiency in your energy conversion, IE the MGU-H can add more power to the crank if you have a less efficient turbine that robs the engine of more power in all circumstances.
The question is whether once you're beyond the turbo lag phase, does the MGU-H help in producing more peak power? As far as I know, no. The MGU-H is used to recover 'heat' energy and minimize the turbo lag, but will not contribute to more peak power.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:46 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:36 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:42 pm


I think you meant to say “ICE + MGU-K“.

I think that in the max power mode the MGU-H is a consumer of power not contributor. The ICE is supercharged with the the compressor driven by the MGU-H (electrical Energy from the ES) and the turbine (kinetic Energy from the exhaust).

Depending on LHV of the fuel this puts the ICE crank power (890hp) at around 50-52% of the energy available in the fuel. Since the compressor is driven in part by an external source this is not the same as the ICE efficiency.
No, the MGU-H does contribute. Powering the turbo takes energy from the crankshaft. Remember that the turbine is an obstruction at the end of the exhaust runners. That obstruction creates backpressure adding pumping losses to the crankshaft. Those pumping losses are working against the crankshaft robbing it of power. By removing that pumping loss with the MGU-H, the power lost driving the turbine returns to the crankshaft.

A belt driven super charger and exhaust gas driver super charger both impart a parasitic load on the engine reducing it's true potential. There's no such thing as a free lunch in physics. Using the power of the MGU-H reduces this parasitic drag, therefore we can think of the MGU-H as adding power to the crankshaft, just not directly. Because it's not direct there's some inefficiency in the energy conversion, so 100hp from the MGU-H doesn't necessarily equal to 100hp extra at the crank. You can get closer if you improve the efficiency in your energy conversion, IE the MGU-H can add more power to the crank if you have a less efficient turbine that robs the engine of more power in all circumstances.
The question is whether once you're beyond the turbo lag phase, does the MGU-H help in producing more peak power? As far as I know, no. The MGU-H is used to recover 'heat' energy and minimize the turbo lag, but will not contribute to more peak power.
Yes, the turbo never stops being an obstruction for the engine. Just because the turbo is producing enough boost to overcome the parasitic drag imparted by the turbine, doesn't mean that parasitic drag vanishes, in fact the parasitic drag becomes greater, the greater the boost.

Often times, if your wastegate on a turbine isn't large enough, they can be wide open and you will still build boost pressure, the goal of the wastegate is to bypass the turbine, in other words the turbine is not absorbing engine back pressure. If you're flowing too much exhaust gas it will overwhelm the bypass and start building more boost.
Last edited by godlameroso on Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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etusch
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I don't know if gearing allowed at mgu-h and if it would really work if it done. This is just an idea. If you compress more air into cylinder, you can burn more fuel ( but this is limited by rules) resulting more gas. If you can combust maximum allowed fuel and if you can use gearing with mgu-h, exhaust gas could help mgu-h to spin turbine with lesser rpm at itself so less electric comsuption. If I were I would choose to use cvt like something. I don't know if it would work or it would just weight and waste of money ?

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godlameroso
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That would require more complexity, more points of failure, plus the gearing must be fixed as it is in the MGU-K.

The MGU-H and compressor and turbine bypass valves can do the same thing as long as you size your components appropriately.
Last edited by godlameroso on Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:46 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:36 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:42 pm


I think you meant to say “ICE + MGU-K“.

I think that in the max power mode the MGU-H is a consumer of power not contributor. The ICE is supercharged with the the compressor driven by the MGU-H (electrical Energy from the ES) and the turbine (kinetic Energy from the exhaust).

Depending on LHV of the fuel this puts the ICE crank power (890hp) at around 50-52% of the energy available in the fuel. Since the compressor is driven in part by an external source this is not the same as the ICE efficiency.
No, the MGU-H does contribute. Powering the turbo takes energy from the crankshaft. Remember that the turbine is an obstruction at the end of the exhaust runners. That obstruction creates backpressure adding pumping losses to the crankshaft. Those pumping losses are working against the crankshaft robbing it of power. By removing that pumping loss with the MGU-H, the power lost driving the turbine returns to the crankshaft.

A belt driven super charger and exhaust gas driver super charger both impart a parasitic load on the engine reducing it's true potential. There's no such thing as a free lunch in physics. Using the power of the MGU-H reduces this parasitic drag, therefore we can think of the MGU-H as adding power to the crankshaft, just not directly. Because it's not direct there's some inefficiency in the energy conversion, so 100hp from the MGU-H doesn't necessarily equal to 100hp extra at the crank. You can get closer if you improve the efficiency in your energy conversion, IE the MGU-H can add more power to the crank if you have a less efficient turbine that robs the engine of more power in all circumstances.
The question is whether once you're beyond the turbo lag phase, does the MGU-H help in producing more peak power? As far as I know, no. The MGU-H is used to recover 'heat' energy and minimize the turbo lag, but will not contribute to more peak power.
If turbo itself produce enough induction to combust allowed fuel then mgu-h may use only for lag preventer. But if it need help for so much induction then it has another job.