Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

He has already admitted how much performance Mercedes rear brake drums give them, but it's not a trick. Funny that RP has their own cheaper version which is good enough to comfortably lead the midfield. Mercedes via Brawn and Wolff have now, more political pull than Ferrari it seems. To me it makes what Honda and Red Bull are doing more impressive, that they are so competitive without flashy politics or car gimmicks. They're not openly trying to twist FIA/FOM's arm to make regulations that benefit them.

[ispano6]

Nope. Not talking about that video. I am talking about winter testing comments! You have to search for those set of videos/quotes and you will see what is said there.

I really doubt that Tanabe or Yamamoto would have used the word "robust". That's your wording, is it not?
You should post the video or quotes if you're so sure about what was said and what made you suspicious. What are your suspicions regarding Honda's comments? Are you insinuating that the usage of the word "robust" was used in the context of being "suspect"? The MGUK is limited in its output and Honda has already maximized it so your comment about the MGUK lacks both evidence or intent. What are you trying to say? That Honda wanted to copy Mercedes' cheat codes or ERS mapping or that they were looking for a way to cheat?

I have been following the Honda engine since inception so I take very careful note of what is said.

I am going to make an edit here.

I just found the quote! But it is not from Tanabe or Asaki! It is from a japanese Honda insider. I cannot share here! But it can be googled!

Show us the quote and who the insider is. I don't care to google search something that I have no idea to query. Why don't you share with us your query instead of being childish and refusing to post evidence that supports your claim.

[hollus]

May I remind everyone that this thread is abut the Honda PU?
I see Mercedes and Ferrari mentioned almost more often than Honda. And lots of car pace, when we all know that power can be traded for downforce.

Try to be a bit on topic, just in case someone comes here to read about the Honda PU.

And please refrain from personal fights and tit for tat.

[dans79]

It's rather interesting isn't it, maybe Cowell leaving has something to do with him disagreeing with Mercedes pushing the "grey are" Ferrari was using??

Probably more like he isn't a young pup anymore, and burning the wick at both ends last year to catch up to the Ferrari false target, is more than he wants to do at this point in his career!

[PlatinumZealot]

I really doubt that Tanabe or Yamamoto would have used the word "robust". That's your wording, is it not?
You should post the video or quotes if you're so sure about what was said and what made you suspicious. What are your suspicions regarding Honda's comments? Are you insinuating that the usage of the word "robust" was used in the context of being "suspect"? The MGUK is limited in its output and Honda has already maximized it so your comment about the MGUK lacks both evidence or intent. What are you trying to say? That Honda wanted to copy Mercedes' cheat codes or ERS mapping or that they were looking for a way to cheat?

I have been following the Honda engine since inception so I take very careful note of what is said.

I am going to make an edit here.

I just found the quote! But it is not from Tanabe or Asaki! It is from a japanese Honda insider. I cannot share here! But it can be googled!

Show us the quote and who the insider is. I don't care to google search something that I have no idea to query. Why don't you share with us your query instead of being childish and refusing to post evidence that supports your claim.

Your rude comment doesn't deserve a response.
And it is off topic anyway. Mercedes PU.

[dren]

I really doubt that Tanabe or Yamamoto would have used the word "robust". That's your wording, is it not?
You should post the video or quotes if you're so sure about what was said and what made you suspicious. What are your suspicions regarding Honda's comments? Are you insinuating that the usage of the word "robust" was used in the context of being "suspect"? The MGUK is limited in its output and Honda has already maximized it so your comment about the MGUK lacks both evidence or intent. What are you trying to say? That Honda wanted to copy Mercedes' cheat codes or ERS mapping or that they were looking for a way to cheat?

I have been following the Honda engine since inception so I take very careful note of what is said.

I am going to make an edit here.

I just found the quote! But it is not from Tanabe or Asaki! It is from a japanese Honda insider. I cannot share here! But it can be googled!

Show us the quote and who the insider is. I don't care to google search something that I have no idea to query. Why don't you share with us your query instead of being childish and refusing to post evidence that supports your claim.

Googling robust mguk links you to a post on this site, in this thread.

[mem]

Probably more like he isn't a young pup anymore, and burning the wick at both ends last year to catch up to the Ferrari false target, is more than he wants to do at this point in his career!

no one can catch up with an illegal PU except in an illegal way , how can you find 50-60 hp legally in few months , be it Honda , Mercedes or Renault , beside such power will deceive to complement the chassis , didn't Ferrari took the pole in Singapore 2019 with all its tightly corners did Ferrari have the best chassis last year?
i read the TD with how FIA will use the one mode and the current investigation about ERS i truly find it very hard to manipulate, truth will be revealed.

[holeindalip]

The FIA have been triggered to act because Ferrari are getting routinely beat by midfield and customer teams. I say let them reap what they sowed, but the FIA/FOM will never let that happen in a year where they’ve lost nearly $100m and need as many eyeballs on TV rooting for Ferrari.

you do repeat your self alot about how great mercs are ,how they are the most efficiency among all etc etc
can you explain if the FIA only act now because Ferrari are getting routinely beat by midfield ,why they hampered Ferrari in the first place ? couldn't they tell Ferrari hey detune your PU by 20 hp and hushhh don't tell any one
can you explain why FIA didn't take away points from Racing point(more than 15) or dsq them from races ?!!
can you explain how mercs can qualify 1.1s ahead of RBR Honda although few months ago they were qualifying with a different of 1 to 2 tenths.
isn't it clear as sun shine the abnormality of the Mercedes power unit behavior ?, if you see Mercedes qualifying in SPA
with only 1 or 2 tenths ahead of RBR Honda and Hamilton can no longer cruise away in races (due to the FIA current investigation) will you admit the wrong doing of Mercedes or you will still defend them blindly...

The FIA also could've stripped Ferrari of all their results and prize money for 2019, but they didn't. Instead, they got a private settlement.

Re: RP (which has nothing to do with this thread), they did actually lose points, unlike Ferrari. And Renault dropped the appeal today, which to me seems like a tacit admission that RP exploited a loophole/unregulated area in the regulations, and now Renault are satisfied that it will be closed going foward.

Re: Merc's pace. Yes. They're faster in every type of corner compared to Red Bull this year, which accounts for the vast majority of the gap.

Out of the 7+ tenths gap in qualifying in Barcelona, about 5-6 tenths came from superior cornering performance.

https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.jpg

Mercedes' performance increase this year relative to the midfield is virtually identical to past seasons. Which suggests that they did NOT make a huge performance step this year, relative to other years.

Which is also contrary to what GhostF1 has been claiming.

Red Bull and Ferrari fell back. Did they get their car builds wrong? Or did those PU-related TDs affect Honda and Ferrari more? Things that make you go "Hmmmm."

"Nothing has been able to touch the Mercedes W11 in the first three races. No other car has qualified within 0.5sec of it and its advantage at the last race was 0.9sec. But the notable thing is that it isn’t any further clear of the midfield than was last year’s car, as the figures below illustrate.

Qualifying pace average deficit of McLaren/Renault/R Point to Mercedes
2019 – 1.972 per cent
2020 to date – 1.771 per cent"

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... -f1-rivals

Next?

I keep repeating this and no one hears me because I'm not that good with links and such on forums, this information is spot on zibby....

I've been a defender of the Mercedes power unit for awhile and if it does come out that they were (playing in grey areas) I'll take it on the chin and admit it.... But if another power unit starts dropping g down the order I expect the defenders of those power units to take it on the chin also....

[Wouter]

I have been following the Honda engine since inception so I take very careful note of what is said.

I am going to make an edit here.

I just found the quote! But it is not from Tanabe or Asaki! It is from a japanese Honda insider. I cannot share here! But it can be googled!

.
Show us the quote and who the insider is. I don't care to google search something that I have no idea to query. Why don't you share with us your query instead of being childish and refusing to post evidence that supports your claim.

.
Googling robust mguk links you to a post on this site, in this thread.

Thanks @Dren I found it.
"It is from a japanese Honda insider. I cannot share here!"
Childish by @PZ not to mention @Wazari in a Honda topic.
I immediately kindly asked for a link in a PM, he saw it, but got no answer to it either.

[63l8qrrfy6]

There are 2 reasons why I don't buy the strong/robust MGUK:

1. Hamilton had to take a new MGUK early. That is definitely not a sign of robustness.

2. The power delta between the worst MGUK (95% efficient) and an unheard of 100% efficient MGUK is only 6 kW. That is less than 1% of the maximum PU power. If so called Honda insiders claimed to have measured such small deltas from GPS data I call b/s.

Is there a chance Merc have a more efficient MGUK ? Sure, but realistically it's not something worth more than a couple kw at best, certainly not something other teams can infer from whatever data they gather at the track.

[dans79]

no one can catch up with an illegal PU except in an illegal way ,

That's an overly simplistic view of a complex subject matter.

how can you find 50-60 hp legally in few months , be it Honda , Mercedes or Renault , beside such power will deceive to complement the chassis , didn't Ferrari took the pole in Singapore 2019 with all its tightly corners did Ferrari have the best chassis last year?

1. No manufacture knows how much more or less power their competitions PU has, They are at best an educated, but still fairly wild guess. You can't easily separate the PU from the chassis when making estimates, unless you have access to proprietary information.
2. Merc was partially hobbled all of last year, because they miscalculated how much cooling the PU needed so they had to run it slightly detuned. Thus the jump from last year to this year looks larger than it most likely actually is.
3. Within reason power can make up for a bad chassis.
4. If a chassis/aero update allows you to produce the same amount of downforce while reducing drag (increased efficiency), it has the same effect as a PU gain.

[PlatinumZealot]

.
Show us the quote and who the insider is. I don't care to google search something that I have no idea to query. Why don't you share with us your query instead of being childish and refusing to post evidence that supports your claim.

.
Googling robust mguk links you to a post on this site, in this thread.

Thanks @Dren I found it.
"It is from a japanese Honda insider. I cannot share here!"
Childish by @PZ not to mention @Wazari in a Honda topic.
I immediately kindly asked for a link in a PM, he saw it, but got no answer to it either.

Childish? You and Ispano are the childish ones who think you can demand answers and get them immediately, when all you have to do is quick google. Posters these days, demanding to be spoon fed everything!

How many current Honda PU insiders do you know? Not hard to figure it out who it was eh?

[lio007]

Reading Wazari's last post i wonder if they used a more likely-SPEC2 in pre-season? The rumbling, crackling Honda-sound was so much more audible than in the last couple of weeks.
I have to admit, I haven't followed this thread very closely so I want to know, if it's "revealed" why the pre-season sound was so much different?

[henry]

There are 2 reasons why I don't buy the strong/robust MGUK:

1. Hamilton had to take a new MGUK early. That is definitely not a sign of robustness.

2. The power delta between the worst MGUK (95% efficient) and an unheard of 100% efficient MGUK is only 6 kW. That is less than 1% of the maximum PU power. If so called Honda insiders claimed to have measured such small deltas from GPS data I call b/s.

Is there a chance Merc have a more efficient MGUK ? Sure, but realistically it's not something worth more than a couple kw at best, certainly not something other teams can infer from whatever data they gather at the track.

Perhaps there in differences in how long the MGU-Ks can be run at high power. During a qualification lap, if they are maximising ERS use, the K will need to run at max power for around 50+seconds as well as most of the rest of the lap at whatever the H can deliver. They are very seldom not in operation. This is quite a lot more than race duty, maybe half the energy throughput. If they size cooling for race duty they might need to work hard to get the K to cope with the qualification duty cycle.

[Alexf1]

What if an auxiliary electrical system feeds the MGU-K with some more current next to the main line that isnt measured by the sensors. Then you can produce more power from the MGU-K, but you would need a more robust MGU-K to cope with that. Remember Ricciardo's split second MGU-K power spike while going over a curb in Singapore last year which did not go unpunished? Perhaps this is going on for quite some time already and is getting out of hand so FIA is schutting down that road now too.