Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Revs84 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
Honda just posted this vacancy on their Linked Page

https://en.hondaracingf1.com/Careers.html

Coincidence? :lol:
What makes you think that was posted recently? They've been hiring for the ESS team for months, in fact, the number of open positions used to be a lot more. They've been trying to hire more local people due to COVID restrictions preventing Japanese engineers from being able to leave Japan. On Sept 1st this restriction was made more lenient, and I imagine they've sent over some engineers now that they are allowed to travel abroad and can return more readily to Japan and their families. Marko had mentioned that they hired new people (likely local) and he said that might be one of the issues. Honda Sakura focused on improving the English of the Japanese engineers so that they could communicate clearly from Japan since all battery development is in HRD-UK. Maybe they've filled most of the positions or can go back to rotating in expats.

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:28 am
Revs84 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:18 pm
Honda just posted this vacancy on their Linked Page

https://en.hondaracingf1.com/Careers.html

Coincidence? :lol:
What makes you think that was posted recently? They've been hiring for the ESS team for months, in fact, the number of open positions used to be a lot more. They've been trying to hire more local people due to COVID restrictions preventing Japanese engineers from being able to leave Japan. On Sept 1st this restriction was made more lenient, and I imagine they've sent over some engineers now that they are allowed to travel abroad and can return more readily to Japan and their families. Marko had mentioned that they hired new people (likely local) and he said that might be one of the issues. Honda Sakura focused on improving the English of the Japanese engineers so that they could communicate clearly from Japan since all battery development is in HRD-UK. Maybe they've filled most of the positions or can go back to rotating in expats.
I was joking :wink: It's actually great to see Honda are still recruiting, even with a decision deadline looming. Hopefully that's a good sign for continuation.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I want to share this here to as sign of how Honda approach sensors. After 3:50 engineer talks about their second countermeasure about if a sensor cease sending signals.


Snorked
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Honda used bear 🐻 plating on current engine if translation is correct.

https://serakota.blog.ss-blog.jp/2020-08-27

There's also a feature in latest Autosport https://www.as-books.jp/books/preview.php?no=7499
- Honda F1 PU Birth Secret Story HONDA RA620H from HRD Sakura

- Passionate Power Unit 2nd: MGU-H & Energy Management Takashi Otobe

- MGU-H Turbine Compressor Development

- 125,000rpm Speculation

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Snorked wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:42 am
Honda used bear 🐻 plating on current engine if translation is correct.

https://serakota.blog.ss-blog.jp/2020-08-27

There's also a feature in latest Autosport https://www.as-books.jp/books/preview.php?no=7499
- Honda F1 PU Birth Secret Story HONDA RA620H from HRD Sakura

- Passionate Power Unit 2nd: MGU-H & Energy Management Takashi Otobe

- MGU-H Turbine Compressor Development

- 125,000rpm Speculation
They used a special plating on the cylinder bore to better withstand the thrust force of the piston skirt on the cylinder bore.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Snorked wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:42 am
Honda used bear 🐻 plating on current engine if translation is correct.

https://serakota.blog.ss-blog.jp/2020-08-27

There's also a feature in latest Autosport https://www.as-books.jp/books/preview.php?no=7499
- Honda F1 PU Birth Secret Story HONDA RA620H from HRD Sakura

- Passionate Power Unit 2nd: MGU-H & Energy Management Takashi Otobe

- MGU-H Turbine Compressor Development

- 125,000rpm Speculation
It's called "Bear" plating because it uses 熊製メッキ (Bear-made Chrome) because it was invented in "熊本" which is Kumamoto Japan. The metal itself is called 熊防メタル (Kumabou Metal. )Kuma is literally bear. The plating has extremely high precision at the micron level and was the chosen material that allows Honda's high power mode to be used longer.
It is written about in the September issue of Auto Sport Magazine.
Image
Image
Image

October Auto Sport Magazine:
Image
Image
Image

Will try to get the rest of the pages as high quality scans and translate the main parts.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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My guess is some sort of chrome ceramic coating. A hard chrome coating that has cracks filled with ceramic materials. Can you confirm if it for the rings or the liner?
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I've obtained both the Sept and Oct issue of Auto Sport and also the Oct issue of F1 Sokuho. I haven't read all of it and won't be able to translate any of it until later in the week but here are some parts that I've read.

It uses a patented process called Kumamoto "K" Plating and a new material was developed together with Honda for 2020. Both the material and process are proprietary and not available anywhere else in the world. It has been introduced to the cylinders to withstand damage from the piston rings. According to Kakuda Tetsushi, it has opened up a new world of potential for the Honda PU.

Kumabou holds the patents for electroless nickel plating and also the anodic oxide coating of aluminum called Alumite.
Not saying that is specifically what Honda RA620H is using but since that is what they specialize in I imagine it is along those lines of technology. It's quite different to Mercedes patented Nanoslide technology that uses arc spray of molten metal.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Thanks ispano6!

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:19 am
I've obtained both the Sept and Oct issue of Auto Sport and also the Oct issue of F1 Sokuho. I haven't read all of it and won't be able to translate any of it until later in the week but here are some parts that I've read.
.............
Thank you @Ispano!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:19 am
I've obtained both the Sept and Oct issue of Auto Sport and also the Oct issue of F1 Sokuho. I haven't read all of it and won't be able to translate any of it until later in the week but here are some parts that I've read.

It uses a patented process called Kumamoto "K" Plating and a new material was developed together with Honda for 2020. Both the material and process are proprietary and not available anywhere else in the world. It has been introduced to the cylinders to withstand damage from the piston rings. According to Kakuda Tetsushi, it has opened up a new world of potential for the Honda PU.

Kumabou holds the patents for electroless nickel plating and also the anodic oxide coating of aluminum called Alumite.
Not saying that is specifically what Honda RA620H is using but since that is what they specialize in I imagine it is along those lines of technology. It's quite different to Mercedes patented Nanoslide technology that uses arc spray of molten metal.
Ok this is their own "recipe" to the chrome ceramic it seems. The major Eurocompanies make a bunch of similar coatings. Aluminum oxide cermamics are filled in to the microcracks. It is for elasticity and hardness at the same time.

When i was in power industry was not uncommon to see companies offering new materials saying "we are the only ones in the world that make this!" but the other companies offering the same materials come and say the same.

For example federal mogul has at least three methods for these sorts of materials. Arc spray Is only one. The chrome ceramic is not arc sprayed.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:43 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:19 am
I've obtained both the Sept and Oct issue of Auto Sport and also the Oct issue of F1 Sokuho. I haven't read all of it and won't be able to translate any of it until later in the week but here are some parts that I've read.

It uses a patented process called Kumamoto "K" Plating and a new material was developed together with Honda for 2020. Both the material and process are proprietary and not available anywhere else in the world. It has been introduced to the cylinders to withstand damage from the piston rings. According to Kakuda Tetsushi, it has opened up a new world of potential for the Honda PU.

Kumabou holds the patents for electroless nickel plating and also the anodic oxide coating of aluminum called Alumite.
Not saying that is specifically what Honda RA620H is using but since that is what they specialize in I imagine it is along those lines of technology. It's quite different to Mercedes patented Nanoslide technology that uses arc spray of molten metal.
Ok this is their own "recipe" to the chrome ceramic it seems. The major Eurocompanies make a bunch of similar coatings. Aluminum oxide cermamics are filled in to the microcracks. It is for elasticity and hardness at the same time.

When i was in power industry was not uncommon to see companies offering new materials saying "we are the only ones in the world that make this!" but the other companies offering the same materials come and say the same.

For example federal mogul has at least three methods for these sorts of materials. Arc spray Is only one. The chrome ceramic is not arc sprayed.
Mmm, what you're saying is a possibility, but you're adding the ceramic part as pure speculation. There is no mention of ceramic in any of that article whatsoever, not even a vague allusion to it. So the underlying tone of playing down an achievement and convinced "its done everywhere else" is sort of in poor taste.. especially considering it's entirely based on your own guesswork don't you think?

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:59 am
Mmm, what you're saying is a possibility, but you're adding the ceramic part as pure speculation. There is no mention of ceramic in any of that article whatsoever, not even a vague allusion to it. So the underlying tone of playing down an achievement and convinced "its done everywhere else" is sort of in poor taste.. especially considering it's entirely based on your own guesswork don't you think?
I just got through the busiest part of my work week so I'll try and look into the actual material, but I'm sure it is not ceramic. The technology involves anodizing, it is about layering ions microns thick. And the purpose doesn't appear to be to fill any gaps. It is a novel way of adding a uniform layer of extremely hard metal. I kind of don't want to give away exactly what it is, being that the article is titled "secret"! But what the heck someone from Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari are bound to have it translated ;) It's patented anyway, just like the Mercedes "nanoslide" technology protected by 40+ patents! The Japanese relish in the challenge of high-tech, not "middle-tech"!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:59 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:43 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:19 am
I've obtained both the Sept and Oct issue of Auto Sport and also the Oct issue of F1 Sokuho. I haven't read all of it and won't be able to translate any of it until later in the week but here are some parts that I've read.

It uses a patented process called Kumamoto "K" Plating and a new material was developed together with Honda for 2020. Both the material and process are proprietary and not available anywhere else in the world. It has been introduced to the cylinders to withstand damage from the piston rings. According to Kakuda Tetsushi, it has opened up a new world of potential for the Honda PU.

Kumabou holds the patents for electroless nickel plating and also the anodic oxide coating of aluminum called Alumite.
Not saying that is specifically what Honda RA620H is using but since that is what they specialize in I imagine it is along those lines of technology. It's quite different to Mercedes patented Nanoslide technology that uses arc spray of molten metal.
Ok this is their own "recipe" to the chrome ceramic it seems. The major Eurocompanies make a bunch of similar coatings. Aluminum oxide cermamics are filled in to the microcracks. It is for elasticity and hardness at the same time.

When i was in power industry was not uncommon to see companies offering new materials saying "we are the only ones in the world that make this!" but the other companies offering the same materials come and say the same.

For example federal mogul has at least three methods for these sorts of materials. Arc spray Is only one. The chrome ceramic is not arc sprayed.
Mmm, what you're saying is a possibility, but you're adding the ceramic part as pure speculation. There is no mention of ceramic in any of that article whatsoever, not even a vague allusion to it. So the underlying tone of playing down an achievement and convinced "its done everywhere else" is sort of in poor taste.. especially considering it's entirely based on your own guesswork don't you think?

All these years, and I didn't know you can read Japanese. :wink:

The article itself is extremely vague. Even Ispano admits he is doing guesswork based on patent searches.

Why would Honda tell the public their secrets anyway? And how do they know other companies have not developed similar?

In materials science even a little difference of a tenth of a percent or slight change of process is patentable and be said proprietary. It is normal for many companies to do this. For example the non-galling alloy "Waukesha". Other company's made similar alloys but slightly tweaked. Essentially the same thing.. but not exactly the same.

My reasoning if that they are using chrome a this level you won't use chrome by itself. The trend in the new tech is to impregnate ceramics for better mechanical wear. Research and you will see. Honda won't say exactly this of course.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:52 am
The article itself is extremely vague. Even Ispano admits he is doing guesswork based on patent searches.

Why would Honda tell the public their secrets anyway? And how do they know other companies have not developed similar?

In materials science even a little difference of a tenth of a percent or slight change of process is patentable and be said proprietary. It is normal for many companies to do this. For example the non-galling alloy "Waukesha". Other company's made similar alloys but slightly tweaked. Essentially the same thing.. but not exactly the same.

My reasoning if that they are using chrome a this level you won't use chrome by itself. The trend in the new tech is to impregnate ceramics for better mechanical wear. Research and you will see. Honda won't say exactly this of course.
Since when can YOU read Japanese? And don't put words in my mouth or claim to know what Honda's subsidiary is doing. I called it "chrome" intentionally to be vague and you seem to have jumped on it and are trolling as usual. All I will say is that Honda is giving credit to where credit is due, and it's a subsidiary of Honda in Kumamoto. I won't bother to share the images and data from HondaF1 regarding this topic anymore and will only through PMs to the ones I know won't spread it around. Consider it privileged information.