Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
hurril
hurril
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:07 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:52 am
The article itself is extremely vague. Even Ispano admits he is doing guesswork based on patent searches.

Why would Honda tell the public their secrets anyway? And how do they know other companies have not developed similar?

In materials science even a little difference of a tenth of a percent or slight change of process is patentable and be said proprietary. It is normal for many companies to do this. For example the non-galling alloy "Waukesha". Other company's made similar alloys but slightly tweaked. Essentially the same thing.. but not exactly the same.

My reasoning if that they are using chrome a this level you won't use chrome by itself. The trend in the new tech is to impregnate ceramics for better mechanical wear. Research and you will see. Honda won't say exactly this of course.
Since when can YOU read Japanese? And don't put words in my mouth or claim to know what Honda's subsidiary is doing. I called it "chrome" intentionally to be vague and you seem to have jumped on it and are trolling as usual. All I will say is that Honda is giving credit to where credit is due, and it's a subsidiary of Honda in Kumamoto. I won't bother to share the images and data from HondaF1 regarding this topic anymore and will only through PMs to the ones I know won't spread it around. Consider it privileged information.
Is this a secret magazine?

nzjrs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hurril wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:39 am
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:07 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:52 am
The article itself is extremely vague. Even Ispano admits he is doing guesswork based on patent searches.

Why would Honda tell the public their secrets anyway? And how do they know other companies have not developed similar?

In materials science even a little difference of a tenth of a percent or slight change of process is patentable and be said proprietary. It is normal for many companies to do this. For example the non-galling alloy "Waukesha". Other company's made similar alloys but slightly tweaked. Essentially the same thing.. but not exactly the same.

My reasoning if that they are using chrome a this level you won't use chrome by itself. The trend in the new tech is to impregnate ceramics for better mechanical wear. Research and you will see. Honda won't say exactly this of course.
Since when can YOU read Japanese? And don't put words in my mouth or claim to know what Honda's subsidiary is doing. I called it "chrome" intentionally to be vague and you seem to have jumped on it and are trolling as usual. All I will say is that Honda is giving credit to where credit is due, and it's a subsidiary of Honda in Kumamoto. I won't bother to share the images and data from HondaF1 regarding this topic anymore and will only through PMs to the ones I know won't spread it around. Consider it privileged information.
Is this a secret magazine?
At least from my perspective it is secret until a forum member generously translates it (thanks ispano6!)

hurril
hurril
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:02 am
hurril wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:39 am
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:07 am


Since when can YOU read Japanese? And don't put words in my mouth or claim to know what Honda's subsidiary is doing. I called it "chrome" intentionally to be vague and you seem to have jumped on it and are trolling as usual. All I will say is that Honda is giving credit to where credit is due, and it's a subsidiary of Honda in Kumamoto. I won't bother to share the images and data from HondaF1 regarding this topic anymore and will only through PMs to the ones I know won't spread it around. Consider it privileged information.
Is this a secret magazine?
At least from my perspective it is secret until a forum member generously translates it (thanks ispano6!)
Sure, but that's different. We certainly don't deserve ispano6's generosity so let's hope we can all be friendly?

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:02 am
hurril wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:39 am
Is this a secret magazine?
.
At least from my perspective it is secret until a forum member generously translates it (thanks ispano6!)

Exactly what I thought too !! +++

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Marti_EF3
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Keep on the good info from Japan @ispano6! If not for people like you we wouldn't have that much information! =D>

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:07 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:52 am
The article itself is extremely vague. Even Ispano admits he is doing guesswork based on patent searches.

Why would Honda tell the public their secrets anyway? And how do they know other companies have not developed similar?

In materials science even a little difference of a tenth of a percent or slight change of process is patentable and be said proprietary. It is normal for many companies to do this. For example the non-galling alloy "Waukesha". Other company's made similar alloys but slightly tweaked. Essentially the same thing.. but not exactly the same.

My reasoning if that they are using chrome a this level you won't use chrome by itself. The trend in the new tech is to impregnate ceramics for better mechanical wear. Research and you will see. Honda won't say exactly this of course.
Since when can YOU read Japanese? And don't put words in my mouth or claim to know what Honda's subsidiary is doing. I called it "chrome" intentionally to be vague and you seem to have jumped on it and are trolling as usual. All I will say is that Honda is giving credit to where credit is due, and it's a subsidiary of Honda in Kumamoto. I won't bother to share the images and data from HondaF1 regarding this topic anymore and will only through PMs to the ones I know won't spread it around. Consider it privileged information.
I appreciate the translations Ispano.

I am on record defending our past Japanese speaking members, encouraging amicable debate, so as to not "chase them away" and losing a good source of info. Some members "chased away" "muramasa," and I think two other Japanese members. You have to check back to the beginning of this thread to find their names.

Did I ever go against everything you say? I only suggested what I think the material could be, based on my experience in the power industry so get off your high horse.

Speaking Japanese doesn't make one a God in the Honda thread.

You are subject to Technical debate just like anyone else here.

I await further information from you on this new liner material.

GhostF1
GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:52 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:59 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:43 pm


Ok this is their own "recipe" to the chrome ceramic it seems. The major Eurocompanies make a bunch of similar coatings. Aluminum oxide cermamics are filled in to the microcracks. It is for elasticity and hardness at the same time.

When i was in power industry was not uncommon to see companies offering new materials saying "we are the only ones in the world that make this!" but the other companies offering the same materials come and say the same.

For example federal mogul has at least three methods for these sorts of materials. Arc spray Is only one. The chrome ceramic is not arc sprayed.
Mmm, what you're saying is a possibility, but you're adding the ceramic part as pure speculation. There is no mention of ceramic in any of that article whatsoever, not even a vague allusion to it. So the underlying tone of playing down an achievement and convinced "its done everywhere else" is sort of in poor taste.. especially considering it's entirely based on your own guesswork don't you think?

All these years, and I didn't know you can read Japanese. :wink:

The article itself is extremely vague. Even Ispano admits he is doing guesswork based on patent searches.

Why would Honda tell the public their secrets anyway? And how do they know other companies have not developed similar?

In materials science even a little difference of a tenth of a percent or slight change of process is patentable and be said proprietary. It is normal for many companies to do this. For example the non-galling alloy "Waukesha". Other company's made similar alloys but slightly tweaked. Essentially the same thing.. but not exactly the same.

My reasoning if that they are using chrome a this level you won't use chrome by itself. The trend in the new tech is to impregnate ceramics for better mechanical wear. Research and you will see. Honda won't say exactly this of course.
I know the article is vague! It's what I actually told you and was astounded at how you'd come to the conclusion ceramic is "definitely involved", and it's the same thing as every other company's "version"..

My favourite part is the whole suggestion "it's obviously the same stuff as many other companies plating tech you see around the world, ceramic is definitely involved and the fact Honda won't tell us this is proof of that"... what a reach!

As for the weird materials science lesson, thanks, but your quick suggestion that "I need to research" as if it solidifies your claim comes across as pompous to be frank.

I've merely called you out on that claim being premature and mostly, being weirdly critical and downbeat of the company (main reason I mentioned it). None of us actually know a thing other than the technology revolves around layering ions at the micron level and there is no suggestion any gap filling or ceramics are in use. We only have what Ispano has given us regarding this.

But anyway, thanks Ispano for your efforts in giving us this info. Always a treat to get a little more inside info or for you giving us your time to translate :)

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Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I have to agree with Ghost, PZ, please, I know in your mind you are keeping it very civil, please try and really focus on that. Ispano6 has done nothing but be constructive. I’d hate to lose him posting here. We have seen that with wasari too and it greatly saddens me.

When has a Merc fan ever been chased of the Merc team thread. You have all the right to post, and usually I like your posts but please, you’ll catch my drift right?
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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All the rage in liner coating technology is DLC of some description. There's literally hundreds of versions with different fillers and dozens of deposition methods and pretty much every single supplier calls them something else.

Some of the DLC deposition methods with "ion" in the name include:
-Direct ion beam
-Ion beam assisted deposition
-Plasma immersion ion processing (used for InnerArmor which is another liner DLC coating)

Most of them are secret and patented but the end result is very similar. I'd be very surprised if Honda do something that's very different.
nah pop no style

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:14 pm
All the rage in liner coating technology is DLC of some description. There's literally hundreds of versions with different fillers and dozens of deposition methods and pretty much every single supplier calls them something else.

Some of the DLC deposition methods with "ion" in the name include:
-Direct ion beam
-Ion beam assisted deposition
-Plasma immersion ion processing (used for InnerArmor which is another liner DLC coating)

Most of them are secret and patented but the end result is very similar. I'd be very surprised if Honda do something that's very different.
No one is re-inventing the wheel, but the properties of the materials used is far above what OEMs use for mass production. OEMs will be content with a process that costs 25 cents less per engine, F1 manufacturers aren't concerned with that. Also any coating has to be .8mm thick, so if Honda has found a way to make a .8mm thick coating stronger than it previously had this is good news. I wonder if they found out a way to spray on FRM.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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DLC liners are hardly used in production engines, actually I don't know of any but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
I've only seen them in racing and development engines.

The issue is not the coating strength but the adhesion strength between coating and substrate which is mostly a function of substrate strength. The innovations are concerned with increasing this strength and reducing the friction by optimizing the filler composition/hydrogen content. My understanding is that the trend is towards hydrogen free DLC tailored for specific engine oils.

Coating thickness is not a concern, all DLC coatings I have worked with have been below 10 mic.
nah pop no style

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:19 pm
But anyway, thanks Ispano for your efforts in giving us this info. Always a treat to get a little more inside info or for you giving us your time to translate :)
GhostF1 you correctly stated that ceramics was never once mentioned in the article. For the benefit of others here I'll mention there are several more pages from both Sept(RA620H special Part 1: ICE) and Oct(RA620H special Part 2:MGUH+Energy Management) that go into great detail as to why Honda went this route, the events that led up to it, what their learnings were, new issues that arose after reaching certain milestones, how it has allowed them to cope with regulation changes such as reduction in oil use and oil loss, high power mode, and sustained average peak power. Honda was already working with this company with the motorcycle division(and others too) and while the motto was "All Honda" this company worked with Honda to create the new plating at the factory Honda Giken Kougyou, Kumamoto Seisakusho. It's evident Kumasei-mekki(Bear Plating) is the pride of Kumamoto and Japan and they have their own mascot cheerleader in Kumamon the Bear. Even Tamiya pays tribute with their Kumamon RC cars and mini-4wd cars.

Some here will say it's the same thing that others are doing etc. Honda went with K-Plating and worked together to create something specifically for the RA620H.
...the FIA banned the use of exotic materials in engine construction, and only aluminum and iron alloys were allowed for the pistons, cylinders, connecting rods, and crankshafts...
Anodizing involves dipping the prototype, part or component into a 30 degree bath of sulfuric acid and powdered aluminum. The concoction is electrified with less than 100 volts of DC current, which picks up oxygen and transforms the part’s exterior into aluminum oxide.

Ceramic coating, which is often referred to as micro-arc oxidation (MAO), involves dipping the part or component into an alkaline bath with a pH balance between eight and twelve. This yields AC currents that create oxygen-producing micro plasma that attach to the part’s exterior surface. (From Mercedes: Twin-wire arc spraying (TWAS) is used to apply an extremely thin coating based on an iron-carbon alloy)

Anodizing produces surfaces that are much harder than even heat-treated steel. It’s a tough outer coating that provides aluminum and aluminum alloy prototypes with corrosion-, abrasion- and wear-resistant protection that can be colored with organic dyes or metallic pigments.

Ceramic coating results in a finish that’s strong and capable of protecting aluminum and aluminum alloy parts. However, it differs from anodizing in that it typically cannot be colored with organic dyes or metallic pigments.

Anodizing requires the use of sophisticated, state-of-the-art equipment. A prototype manufacturing service that finishes aluminum prototypes with selective anodizing typically takes extensive steps to ensure that the process is done with absolute precision in a safe manner, both for the expert technicians and the environment.

Finishing products with micro-arc oxidation typically doesn’t require the same level of precision, which means companies that offer this type of coating might not make the same level of investment in state-of-the-art machinery or expert technicians as those that offer anodizing.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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If Honda is using anodized aluminum plating on the bores, and it's providing enough strength to resist detonation, and reduce friction etc, that's actually huge. Because such a design opens the door to block architecture changes, with less friction you'll have lower heat rejection needs and can reduce friction further by reducing the size of the water pump, or slightly smaller radiator.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Does the article specifically mention anodised aluminium ?
That's hardly something that can take skirt and ring loads.. you normally see that in low load sliding seals and such..
nah pop no style

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Anodized aluminum plating that can take the damage of piston skirt and ring loads would definitely be something to be proud of.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee