Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:32 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:06 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pm


600 HV is not even close to being suitable for a cylinder bore. The typical CrN coated piston rings come in at about 1750 HV give or take. If you were to run these in a high speed high BMEP engine they would tear through a 600 HV bore in no time.

The toughness of material is a measure of how much energy it absorbs before breaking so I'm not sure how that is relevant. All hard coatings are very brittle so they have very poor toughness. Typical aluminium has very good toughness on its own since it is very ductile with some grades easily exceeding 10% elongation before failure.
Yay you learned why they used Al to join boost pipes! Yeah rings top out at 1250 but you're right it would wear through the bore in no time. Typically that always happens when you run an engine without oil.
I would not presume these PDFs represent what "kumasei mekki" is that was developed in partnership with Honda F1.
It's common to hard anodize piston ring lands to prevent rings from micro welding to the pistons. Achieving a good layer is critical to ensuring ring flatness on the groove. I'm sure whatever plating they're using in the cylinders has a good mix of toughness, resistance to abrasion, friction, and the rings are matched to the features on the piston and cylinder liner.

Image



Start at 7:08 if you want to hear about piston ring groove anodizing.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:23 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:32 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:06 pm


Yay you learned why they used Al to join boost pipes! Yeah rings top out at 1250 but you're right it would wear through the bore in no time. Typically that always happens when you run an engine without oil.
I would not presume these PDFs represent what "kumasei mekki" is that was developed in partnership with Honda F1.
It's common to hard anodize piston ring lands to prevent rings from micro welding to the pistons. Achieving a good layer is critical to ensuring ring flatness on the groove. I'm sure whatever plating they're using in the cylinders has a good mix of toughness, resistance to abrasion, friction, and the rings are matched to the features on the piston and cylinder liner.

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/2297913/ ... istons.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MZZrCWqWm4

Start at 7:08 if you want to hear about piston ring groove anodizing.
The article I translated about the Honda RA620H: Secret story? states its a new material that isn't available anywhere else and as far as the article is concerned it's a plating on the cylinder. It was mentioned this plating was specifically used to prevent damage to the piston rings and reduce oil loss. Back to my point, Kumabou nor Honda have published anything about the innovative process or material, but it has been well established that anodizing is one of their patented specialties. The Japanese website has a lot more information but the PDFs you linked appear to be for consumer goods manufacturing.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:52 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:23 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:32 pm

I would not presume these PDFs represent what "kumasei mekki" is that was developed in partnership with Honda F1.
It's common to hard anodize piston ring lands to prevent rings from micro welding to the pistons. Achieving a good layer is critical to ensuring ring flatness on the groove. I'm sure whatever plating they're using in the cylinders has a good mix of toughness, resistance to abrasion, friction, and the rings are matched to the features on the piston and cylinder liner.

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/2297913/ ... istons.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MZZrCWqWm4

Start at 7:08 if you want to hear about piston ring groove anodizing.
The article I translated about the Honda RA620H: Secret story? states its a new material that isn't available anywhere else and as far as the article is concerned it's a plating on the cylinder. It was mentioned this plating was specifically used to prevent damage to the piston rings and reduce oil loss. Back to my point, Kumabou nor Honda have published anything about the innovative process or material, but it has been well established that anodizing is one of their patented specialties. The Japanese website has a lot more information but the PDFs you linked appear to be for consumer goods manufacturing.
Cylinder plating doesn't exist in a vacuum, well maybe during the intake stroke, regardless, to prevent damage to piston rings hard anodizing plating on the cylinder ring grooves actually does prevent damage to the rings. Microwelding on the ring keeps the piston ring from moving around, and lowers sealing, increases oil consumption, and puts more stress on the cylinder walls. Also when you hard anodize the piston ring grooves, the surface on the piston that the ring pushes against isn't perfectly smooth, it is very difficult to create a very smooth hard anodized surface because anodized material is very porous. If Honda's special process creates a very high quality finish and very smooth surface it will improve ring sealing.

It will also allow one to push the limits on the rings and improve durability, combined with a hard anodized piston, and cylinder plating, it probably unlocks a fair bit of potential as well as widening the tuning window.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Another thing this Japanese company specializes in is electroless nickel plating, which is all the rage on circuit racing engines nowadays.

The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:53 pm
Another thing this Japanese company specializes in is electroless nickel plating, which is all the rage on circuit racing engines nowadays.
Yes, I mentioned this back in September in this thread. Also that their specialty is electrostatic breakdown prevention.
ispano6 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:19 am
...
Kumabou holds the patents for electroless nickel plating and also the anodic oxide coating of aluminum called Alumite.
..

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:23 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:32 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:06 pm


Yay you learned why they used Al to join boost pipes! Yeah rings top out at 1250 but you're right it would wear through the bore in no time. Typically that always happens when you run an engine without oil.
I would not presume these PDFs represent what "kumasei mekki" is that was developed in partnership with Honda F1.
It's common to hard anodize piston ring lands to prevent rings from micro welding to the pistons. Achieving a good layer is critical to ensuring ring flatness on the groove. I'm sure whatever plating they're using in the cylinders has a good mix of toughness, resistance to abrasion, friction, and the rings are matched to the features on the piston and cylinder liner.

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/2297913/ ... istons.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MZZrCWqWm4

Start at 7:08 if you want to hear about piston ring groove anodizing.
It is microwelding but it is a very different phenomena to what happens between ring and liner.

The anodizing of ring lands is is a good compromise for an aluminum piston of course. Harder than the parent aluminum and easy to implement.

Fort steel pistons you can easily chrome plate or nickel plate the lands and it will stay their forever basically. It does wear slightly but usually harsh factors cause it to fail.

But this is not the bigest problem in the F1 engines. Wearing, mircrowelding, microseizures would be the biggest problem. When these happen.. Bore finish is destoryed, liner temperature skyrocket.. Blow-by can happen, rings can break, stick, coke up..thermal
fatigue of the piston material (breaking off of material) Detonation, etc.

Because they make the rings so skinny to prevent powerloss the wearing and maintenaing of the oil film is a huge issue i suspect.

I have my suspiscions what Honda are doing but it is only my best guess. A certain material was suggested to my company last year, and i found it unusual because I know of similar for piston rings not the liner. The sales people said it was a relatively new material. But anyway.. I digress.. Dont wanna start this argument again. :mrgreen:
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Alexf1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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A lot of clipping again according to VER. Any sight of an improvement for next year?

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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If the clipping is because they can't harvest enough energy from the MGU-H, then they'll have to sacrifice engine power to improve that, unless they use more drastic means. I have an idea about something they may or may not be working on to improve recovery without affecting power.
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saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:17 am
If the clipping is because they can't harvest enough energy from the MGU-H, then they'll have to sacrifice engine power to improve that, unless they use more drastic means. I have an idea about something they may or may not be working on to improve recovery without affecting power.
Saying you have an 'idea' about what they may or may not be working on without divulging what you think is useless to other forum followers

lio007
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:17 am
If the clipping is because they can't harvest enough energy from the MGU-H, then they'll have to sacrifice engine power to improve that, unless they use more drastic means. I have an idea about something they may or may not be working on to improve recovery without affecting power.
Can you tell us what you are thinking about?

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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[quote=godlameroso post_id=937608 time=1604369821 user_id=9250]
If the clipping is because they can't harvest enough energy from the MGU-H, then they'll have to sacrifice engine power to improve that, unless they use more drastic means. I have an idea about something they may or may not be working on to improve recovery without affecting power.
[/quote]



they have to find a way to do it without sacrificing ice power otherwise it will be same with others but if they achieve this they could be most powerful engine.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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lio007 wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:08 am
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:17 am
If the clipping is because they can't harvest enough energy from the MGU-H, then they'll have to sacrifice engine power to improve that, unless they use more drastic means. I have an idea about something they may or may not be working on to improve recovery without affecting power.
Can you tell us what you are thinking about?
I have, and I'm not opening that can of worms again. Think a more efficient anti-lag.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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So are they not harvesting enough, or deploying too much?
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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:51 pm
So are they not harvesting enough, or deploying too much?
Both really. To harvest more, they have to waste more fuel. So you harvest more, but then you pay some fuel for it, so you limit yourself on fuel, but can deploy more(exchanging crank power for MGU-K power(but the K is attached to the crank)). Want to waste less fuel, give yourself more crank power, deploy less, so you disadvantage yourself there. Then where do you find the right compromise?

You accept you have to compromise, so you use what you have to live with to your advantage where you can. That is the whole point of ERS and the efficiency formula. If you can create strong kinetic pulses in the exhaust(easy when your engine is already knocking to begin with), and time the MGU-H to harvest those bangs similar to how the ERS harvests the extra harvest bangs from the MGU-K. You can make this process very efficient when you control the intake and exhaust gases very precisely, like a turbine engine, the MGU-H gives you this potential.

Experiments have shown that you can induce detonation waves in exhaust tubes, from deflagrations based on the shape and length of the exhaust tubes. Also these engines often live with detonation in the combustion chamber, it's unavoidable, it's not necessarily destructive. Often detonation happens after the spark fires, when it happens before the spark plug fires, that is the destructive detonation.

These cars actually deal with a fair bit of detonation, but it is remarkably well controlled, that is, it still happens, and when it happens, to an extent, compliments the normal deflagration process. However, detonation still has its negative effects on the longevity of the ICE, and the high compression ratios and high cylinder pressures make longevity even harder to deal with. Turbines however, deal with detonation waves surprisingly well.

The difference between normal combustion and detonation is sort of like the difference between getting shoved and getting slapped. The main difference is, if combustion is shoving with all your body weight, detonation is slapping something while running at full speed then ramming into what you're slapping afterwards.

Buuuut, if you get everything just right, you get a "Fa-Jing" push.

You kind of have to wonder where the Alpha Tauri's got a sudden burst of performance along with engine fires and cooling issues.
Last edited by godlameroso on Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:15 pm
.... how the ERS harvests the extra harvest bangs from the MGU-K.
what extra harvest 'bangs' ??? ..... (what are 'extra harvest' bangs ???)