Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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lio007
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:39 pm
Anyone want to take a guess what Honda is doing to improve MGU-H recovery, and by extension, increase MGU-K deployment? They had a marked improvement in deployment and energy management in the last 5 races. Next year the ability they have refined in the last 1/3rd of the season along with an improvement in thermal efficiency(higher compression ratio) should amount to a nice bump in performance. Apparently this "strategy" only has a minimal increase in fuel consumption, and the thermal efficiency gains should in theory nullify this penalty making the strategy more flexible.

Pretty excited to see this new power unit on track. I'm sure everyone else is making good gains as well, and what Honda is doing is no secret at this point.

It's a shame that Honda is leaving just as it's hitting its stride, as I feel they have a good grasp on what's needed for this current engine formula.
Why is that a -1? I've evened it out.

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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There is something going on with off throttle fuel burning.
Translation from ispano:
viewtopic.php?p=947816#p947816

The fact that the FIA have introduced new rules regulating the consumption off throttle is probably a response to someome doing something clever. At the end of the day whenever the engine is using less than the maximum fuel flow it is throwing away electrical energy that could otherwise be deployed (at the expense of greater fuel consumption).

I don't know about the compression ratio, for all we know all of them could already be at the maximum allowed.
nah pop no style

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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lio007 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:38 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:39 pm
Anyone want to take a guess what Honda is doing to improve MGU-H recovery, and by extension, increase MGU-K deployment? They had a marked improvement in deployment and energy management in the last 5 races. Next year the ability they have refined in the last 1/3rd of the season along with an improvement in thermal efficiency(higher compression ratio) should amount to a nice bump in performance. Apparently this "strategy" only has a minimal increase in fuel consumption, and the thermal efficiency gains should in theory nullify this penalty making the strategy more flexible.

Pretty excited to see this new power unit on track. I'm sure everyone else is making good gains as well, and what Honda is doing is no secret at this point.

It's a shame that Honda is leaving just as it's hitting its stride, as I feel they have a good grasp on what's needed for this current engine formula.
Why is that a -1? I've evened it out.
Didn't you read, fairy tales. Never mind Honda themselves state as much, no, because I said it, therefore it MUST be wrong.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:37 pm
There is something going on with off throttle fuel burning.
Translation from ispano:
viewtopic.php?p=947816#p947816

The fact that the FIA have introduced new rules regulating the consumption off throttle is probably a response to someome doing something clever. At the end of the day whenever the engine is using less than the maximum fuel flow it is throwing away electrical energy that could otherwise be deployed (at the expense of greater fuel consumption).

I don't know about the compression ratio, for all we know all of them could already be at the maximum allowed.
The geometric CR limit is 18:1, as far as I'm aware no one is there yet. It is extremely difficult to run geometric CR at 16:1, let alone 18:1. If I had to put a number on it, GCR is ~14-16:1, any more than that, and you'd need to lower working compression ratio with Miller cycle. 18:1 at 4.5 bar MAP means detonation city, as you're entering diesel engine compression ratios.

The regulation limits aren't just some numbers that teams can easily surpass and are having to hold back. They are very difficult to achieve. Given the strength needed from the crankshaft, it's insane they can make it weigh 5.3kg. That's less than 12lbs or the weight of an average house cat.

The forged crankshaft on my S2k can take 1,000+ hp but that sucker weighs over 20kg.

Also it was discovered the MGU-H can indeed harvest detonation pulses. However the detonation doesn't originate in the combustion chamber but rather the exhaust pipes. There are also secondary benefits, as it allows one to run higher duty cycle on the wastegates for the same compressor boost pressure. Incidentally this was discovered by accident because the wastegates slow down the detonation enough for the MGU-H to successfully harvest it. It gets complex because detonation waves affect cylinder scavenging, and so changes to the engine can be made to get more out of it.

However that alone doesn't account for the entirety of the gains, sure it makes harvesting a bit more flexible, but the real breakthrough for Honda was in energy deployment. Saving some on the straights, and using more on the flat out corners that scrub speed gave Red Bull the edge.

You noticed how RB repositioned the exhaust wastegates? Not only was it to fit a new engine cover, they also wanted to take advantage of the fact they had more gasses coming from their pipes.

Another fairy tale
The End. :D 8) :?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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lio007
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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In the past the engine manufacturers had to have a wastegate and at least 1 wastegate pipe. But from 2021 they are allowed to have none of them.

What are the advantages / disadvantages of having no wastegate?

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_cerber1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:39 pm
Anyone want to take a guess what Honda is doing to improve MGU-H recovery, and by extension, increase MGU-K deployment? They had a marked improvement in deployment and energy management in the last 5 races. Next year the ability they have refined in the last 1/3rd of the season along with an improvement in thermal efficiency(higher compression ratio) should amount to a nice bump in performance. Apparently this "strategy" only has a minimal increase in fuel consumption, and the thermal efficiency gains should in theory nullify this penalty making the strategy more flexible.
How did you define it? And why exactly in the last five races?
In my opinion, you greatly underestimate the engineers and modern infrastructure that motor manufacturers have. It's hard for me now to find an article that said that cartography and engine modes are prescribed on the stands, and on the track there is only a small adjustment to the temperature and air pressure. Moreover, all information from the track is sent online to the head offices of engine manufacturers, where dozens of engineers are involved in its analysis, so after the February tests, there should be no revelations regarding engine operating modes. Even with the FIA ​​restrictions imposed at Monza, Honda had everything it needed for the third training session, and maybe even earlier.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The one mode rule doesn't prevent you from running the power unit as you see fit. As long as the power unit is consistently doing the same thing at the same part of the track it is ok. You can still turn down or turn up the engine. You still have freedom in how you deploy your energy.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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lio007 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:09 am
In the past the engine manufacturers had to have a wastegate and at least 1 wastegate pipe. But from 2021 they are allowed to have none of them.

What are the advantages / disadvantages of having no wastegate?
With no wastegate, the MGU-H has to control turbo speed at all times. Normally the wastegate limits boost pressure and allows e boost.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:01 am
Mudflap wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:37 pm
I don't know about the compression ratio, for all we know all of them could already be at the maximum allowed.
The geometric CR limit is 18:1, as far as I'm aware no one is there yet. It is extremely difficult to run geometric CR at 16:1, let alone 18:1. If I had to put a number on it, GCR is ~14-16:1, any more than that, and you'd need to lower working compression ratio with Miller cycle. 18:1 at 4.5 bar MAP means detonation city, as you're entering diesel engine compression ratios.
I wouldn't make any assumptions about where detonation begins. This is a new combustion system with a whole new set of rules.

OTOH I wonder about the clearance limitations. Achieving 18:1 CR is difficult with:
1. A short stroke engine. (large bore).
2. A high reving engine. (more valve overlap)
je suis charlie

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Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:59 pm
Bandit1216 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:13 pm
No, fully atm, cam sensor is in the planning
I take it this is an older engine that originally came with a carburettor or single point fuel injection?
Nope. The car is 35 years old, but the engine 15. Multipoint (port) batch originally.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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If Honda can achieve a very good surface finish on their pistons while making their ring lands incredibly strong, they can take a big efficiency increase, if the surface finish on their rings is also very good, the results can be even better. I'm talking about microscopic levels of good finish.

This nerd explains why a good ring seal surface finish is important.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nerd is good. I am nerd! Perhaps it is not so good, but I still am :D
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Great nerd, makes great products. They can make piston rings supermodel thin.

Remember Wazari mentioning something a few years back about having channels in the pistons?

The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Anyone want to play another guessing game? How thin are compression rings in F1 engines? For reference, your average road car has ~1.2mm thick compression rings, and this is considered low drag high performance. Obviously F1 has to be on the cutting edge, a thinner ring has lower friction, less wear on the cylinder walls. The limit would be durability, and the ring's ability to seal.

Any takers?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Roostfactor
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:06 pm
Anyone want to play another guessing game? How thin are compression rings in F1 engines? For reference, your average road car has ~1.2mm thick compression rings, and this is considered low drag high performance. Obviously F1 has to be on the cutting edge, a thinner ring has lower friction, less wear on the cylinder walls. The limit would be durability, and the ring's ability to seal.

Any takers?
Are you the great nerd in the video? :D
No idea on ring composition or thickness.
Enlighten us.