Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[haza]

Arai has said that ICE alone is better than Renault's.

at the japenese gp verstappen could not catch up to alonso even with slipstream and DRS until alonso ran out of energy
and the speed traps proven that the honda was faster than the renault

[diffuser]

Arai has said that ICE alone is better than Renault's.

Do we have some empiric evidence of that? I'm curious

I don't think it's even worth mentioning, the PU is nowhere without the ERS.
They share a kind of symbiotic relationship, so you'd tune the ICE to make the KERS more efficient and vice versa. Since the KERS is so weak on the Honda PU the tuning is leaning more towards the ICE.

[godlameroso]

In their defense this could have the unintended consequence of giving them a very good ICE for next year, and if they get their ERS up to snuff they will be very competitive.

[drunkf1fan]

I haven't said which PU concept can't work, I've said both will work.

Then you should clarify what did you mean here:

An engine that is potentially a good idea but fails every other race and is MASSIVELY down on power is one that doesn't work, like Honda's this year. Another year of engines that are a potentially good idea with the potential to be fast but fail all year again is useless.

False again!

It´s you the one stating this design or the other can work or not, I´m saying exactly the opposite, nobody can know if a concept will work or not at this point, this is new technology with no previous experience so none of us can know beforehand what concept will be the most successuful, they all need some time to develop the concept, and only after that we will see what is better. Problem is with current token system development will take a lot of time.

A different thing is if you want to analyse what concept can provide results faster, but since McHonda project was never intended to produce results fast and they specifically stated the project was a long term one with no results first season, you can´t criticize Honda because they got no results this season, they told you that before the beginning.

It was quite clear what I stated, that you can't understand is really your own issue. From the get go my stance is and has been explained well that a more complex design that everyone(apart from you) says is much more difficult to achieve, attempted in a VERY short space of time has an extremely high probability of not being reliable. Their current engine which is easier to achieve is not reliable.

Please define what you mean with "it works". Some people would say a competition engine wich is underperforming compared to some of their competitors, doesn´t work. That applies even to Ferrari.

And still can´t compete with Mercedes

The chances of succeding in the future is something nobody will ever know until we see it in real world.

You started off in response to my first post saying moving to a Ferrari/Renault design would be stupid and followed up saying you could consider the Ferrari engine to not work because it's not competitive, in response to me saying an engine that fails every other race doesn't work.
With literally every post you have screamed that you believe the Ferrari/Renault concept can't be competitive and you could even consider it to not work if it's not matching Mercedes now.

This is clear as day you showing that you absolutely do not believe this engine layout can be competitive so no, not false, you are saying one design can't compete and isn't going to work.

So me saying Honda achieving a complex design in a very short space of time is ruling out that concept of an engine as not able to compete... but you consistently saying using the Ferrari style design is stupid, not competitive and a bad move isn't calling that concept bad, sure.

Then we have the two invalid excuses. People use the token excuse as if without a token limit they would have made a killer engine after a few months and all problems would be fixed? This despite all rumours being that Honda are going to struggle to get the new compressor working by the start of next season.

As for not wanting results this year, sorry but this is Mclaren/Honda fan boy speak. Arai as well as most people at Mclaren were talking about competing for podiums if not wins by the end of the season, points by Spain and maybe podiums early in the second half of the year. They weren't expecting a world championship fight this year, that doesn't mean they didn't expect points or to be this bad. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous, every single statement from Honda or Mclaren personnel contradicts you entirely. Only after half way through the season after Honda/Mclaren have back-pedalled considerably on their targets are people now claiming they expected this all along and weren't expecting to compete for points this year.

[dren]

It takes time. Honda started late. Honda will get there. What was the one thing the McLaren didn't have at the start of the season? Sponsors.

[Andres125sx]

From the get go my stance is and has been explained well that a more complex design that everyone(apart from you) says is much more difficult to achieve, attempted in a VERY short space of time has an extremely high probability of not being reliable. Their current engine which is easier to achieve is not reliable.

I agree with that, wich is very different to what you stated previously saying the design doesn´t work. Any new design need some time to develop, solve maturity problems and be competitive, but that does not mean it doesn´t work

You started off in response to my first post saying moving to a Ferrari/Renault design would be stupid

No I never said that

followed up saying you could consider the Ferrari engine to not work because it's not competitive, in response to me saying an engine that fails every other race doesn't work.

Neither said that, what I said is they can´t compete with Mercedes, wich is a fact, but it´s only you who claim this or that PU doesn´t work

With literally every post you have screamed that you believe the Ferrari/Renault concept can't be competitive and you could even consider it to not work if it's not matching Mercedes now.

Again, I never said that . Actually that´s the opposite to what I said. I said none can know if this or that design will be competitive until they develop it enough, so obviously I never claimed this or that design doesn´t work

This is clear as day you showing that you absolutely do not believe this engine layout can be competitive so no, not false, you are saying one design can't compete and isn't going to work.

So me saying Honda achieving a complex design in a very short space of time is ruling out that concept of an engine as not able to compete... but you consistently saying using the Ferrari style design is stupid, not competitive and a bad move isn't calling that concept bad, sure.

Once again....

Maybe you should try to ignore what you think you know about me and start reading what I actually wrote

Then we have the two invalid excuses. People use the token excuse as if without a token limit they would have made a killer engine after a few months and all problems would be fixed? This despite all rumours being that Honda are going to struggle to get the new compressor working by the start of next season.

So now rumours are a valid argument to criticize a PU design?

As for not wanting results this year, sorry but this is Mclaren/Honda fan boy speak. Arai as well as most people at Mclaren were talking about competing for podiums if not wins by the end of the season, points by Spain and maybe podiums early in the second half of the year. They weren't expecting a world championship fight this year, that doesn't mean they didn't expect points or to be this bad. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous, every single statement from Honda or Mclaren personnel contradicts you entirely. Only after half way through the season after Honda/Mclaren have back-pedalled considerably on their targets are people now claiming they expected this all along and weren't expecting to compete for points this year.

It´s obvious they expected better results, but since their target is not scoring points or doing some podium, if they reach that target this season or not is more or less irrelevant. Their target is winning the title, and that was never supposed to happen before next season or 2017, so to evaluate if the project was successful or not we have to wait until next season or 2017

Claiming the design doesn´t work this season IMHO is fanboyism

[OviJohn]

Pretty nice summary and pics of the Honda PU:

http://en.f1i.com/magazine/29541-exclus ... Ts.twitter

[Joseki]

https://twitter.com/RoboCoP_G/status/656938084420997120

[rowano]

From the get go my stance is and has been explained well that a more complex design that everyone(apart from you) says is much more difficult to achieve, attempted in a VERY short space of time has an extremely high probability of not being reliable. Their current engine which is easier to achieve is not reliable.

I agree with that, wich is very different to what you stated previously saying the design doesn´t work. Any new design need some time to develop, solve maturity problems and be competitive, but that does not mean it doesn´t work

You started off in response to my first post saying moving to a Ferrari/Renault design would be stupid

No I never said that

followed up saying you could consider the Ferrari engine to not work because it's not competitive, in response to me saying an engine that fails every other race doesn't work.

Neither said that, what I said is they can´t compete with Mercedes, wich is a fact, but it´s only you who claim this or that PU doesn´t work

With literally every post you have screamed that you believe the Ferrari/Renault concept can't be competitive and you could even consider it to not work if it's not matching Mercedes now.

Again, I never said that . Actually that´s the opposite to what I said. I said none can know if this or that design will be competitive until they develop it enough, so obviously I never claimed this or that design doesn´t work

This is clear as day you showing that you absolutely do not believe this engine layout can be competitive so no, not false, you are saying one design can't compete and isn't going to work.

So me saying Honda achieving a complex design in a very short space of time is ruling out that concept of an engine as not able to compete... but you consistently saying using the Ferrari style design is stupid, not competitive and a bad move isn't calling that concept bad, sure.

Once again....

Maybe you should try to ignore what you think you know about me and start reading what I actually wrote

Then we have the two invalid excuses. People use the token excuse as if without a token limit they would have made a killer engine after a few months and all problems would be fixed? This despite all rumours being that Honda are going to struggle to get the new compressor working by the start of next season.

So now rumours are a valid argument to criticize a PU design?

As for not wanting results this year, sorry but this is Mclaren/Honda fan boy speak. Arai as well as most people at Mclaren were talking about competing for podiums if not wins by the end of the season, points by Spain and maybe podiums early in the second half of the year. They weren't expecting a world championship fight this year, that doesn't mean they didn't expect points or to be this bad. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous, every single statement from Honda or Mclaren personnel contradicts you entirely. Only after half way through the season after Honda/Mclaren have back-pedalled considerably on their targets are people now claiming they expected this all along and weren't expecting to compete for points this year.

It´s obvious they expected better results, but since their target is not scoring points or doing some podium, if they reach that target this season or not is more or less irrelevant. Their target is winning the title, and that was never supposed to happen before next season or 2017, so to evaluate if the project was successful or not we have to wait until next season or 2017

Claiming the design doesn´t work this season IMHO is fanboyism

And that's the sound of a hand bag slap, hair being pulled and a threat to gouge eyes. This really is getting boring people.

[diffuser]

bye bye logs exhaust. Pics from AMUS ...

[godlameroso]

=D>

[PlatinumZealot]

Yup as expected but much earlier delivery! They did a good job of hiding this in russia or is this bew to usa?

[FW17]

Are they yet to wrap it in heat shielding

[Thunder]

Yup as expected but much earlier delivery! They did a good job of hiding this in russia or is this bew to usa?

They used the Tokens in Russia so i guess it was there. Would fit with the completely different sound Alonso's Car had in FP1.

The Manifolds still look quite compact, did anyone notice a bulkier Bodywork on Fernando's car in Russian FP1? If not Honda did a Great Job incorporating the Exhaust into the Car Philosophy.

[Joseki]

Are they yet to wrap it in heat shielding

If you look closely you can see part of the warping is already there.