Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Would they have had enough time to have a more aggressive design ready? To what extent were they banking on introducing an update mid season?
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nzjrs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:17 am
Would they have had enough time to have a more aggressive design ready? To what extent were they banking on introducing an update mid season?
Exactly. I think maybe even Wazari popped in to say they were banking on the mid-season update being the very large one but then when Covid came in they went conservative and didn't bring the update forward, when they could have. Ish.

(I could be 100% misrembering if this was Wazari or we just discussed this ourselves at the time)

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:06 am
What about non DLC coatings? What if the material you are using is very smooth but porous as well leading to flatter profiles but still having good oil retention? Then if you have excellent ring finish and excellent bore finish as well the load is spread out instead of forcing the ring past the peaks. The valleys are good because they retain oil, but it's still a gap in the material. As with most things automotive, it's a tradeoff, more valleys means more oil retention meaning easier to have hydrodynamic film, but less surface area for your rings to spread their load on. But if you have too much "bearing" surface you lower the chance of having a good oil film.

What if your bore material has excellent oil retention properties without the need for valleys, you could start getting the best of both worlds.
The goal is achieve minimal wear near TDC, where the piston stops moving, load is high and lubrication is now boundary lubrication, and then to achieve hydrodynamic lubrication once the piston starts moving.

At near TDC this is where you need the oil retention the most. Since now there is just metal to metal with a mix of oil between the jagged peaks and valleys. If the oil is hiding inside the material... It would just be metal to metal. Not good.
If there is less oil between the two surfaces, the two materials should at least be extremely hard but not recommended to have this for any extended period of time. So having too smooth a surface interface here is detrimental. Sometimes after too much lubrication you can end up with this. A polished bore. Not good. Because oil doesnt stay where you need it, it runs down away from the loaded area and high wear occurs near TDC.
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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:58 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:06 am
What about non DLC coatings? What if the material you are using is very smooth but porous as well leading to flatter profiles but still having good oil retention? Then if you have excellent ring finish and excellent bore finish as well the load is spread out instead of forcing the ring past the peaks. The valleys are good because they retain oil, but it's still a gap in the material. As with most things automotive, it's a tradeoff, more valleys means more oil retention meaning easier to have hydrodynamic film, but less surface area for your rings to spread their load on. But if you have too much "bearing" surface you lower the chance of having a good oil film.

What if your bore material has excellent oil retention properties without the need for valleys, you could start getting the best of both worlds.
The goal is achieve minimal wear near TDC, where the piston stops moving, load is high and lubrication is now boundary lubrication, and then to achieve hydrodynamic lubrication once the piston starts moving.

At near TDC this is where you need the oil retention the most. Since now there is just metal to metal with a mix of oil between the jagged peaks and valleys. If the oil is hiding inside the material... It would just be metal to metal. Not good.
If there is less oil between the two surfaces, the two materials should at least be extremely hard but not recommended to have this for any extended period of time. So having too smooth a surface interface here is detrimental. Sometimes after too much lubrication you can end up with this. A polished bore. Not good. Because oil doesnt stay where you need it, it runs down away from the loaded area and high wear occurs near TDC.
Peaks and burnished(folded) metal on cylinder bores are for amateur honers. Rod ratio affects dwell time which will affect how fast the piston moves into and away from TDC. At TDC when the piston reverses direction is when oil film is at its thinnest. Like a water skiier when the boat isn't moving, that's when you depend most on film strength, and oil retention, as well as your additive package because that affects the former 2.

Polishing the bore is only bad because it stops oil retention in conventional cylinder walls(burnished metal aka metal folded over to give a smooth appearance), again material choice has a big impact on the oil retaining capacity. Even with a very smooth surface you can have excellent oil retention. Silicone impregnated aluminum aka nikasil/lokasil/and all the other 'sils' have these properties.

There's a soup of ingredients that can be tweaked to reduce friction in key areas.

If you look at electron microscopy of cylinder bores you can often find burnished or folded metal, it shows up as dark areas on the bore.

Image

The dark areas in this image are burnished/folded metal.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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If you see heavy burnishing that is abnormal wear. Normally the peaks would be honed properly to prevent them from folding, according to you, like that.

At TDC there is no hydrodynamic lubrication it literally stops and reverses. So yep. Boundary lubrication. Then a bit mixed lubrication at the piston gets going again. Then it goes hydronamic.

For the peaks and valleys there is an ideal range to have best lubrication.

There are special materials that are smoother than the typical bore finish. And they don't need to be cross honed in the way iron does for example. But they still have a level of roughness to trap oil. They dont have a that geometric hatch pattern but they are still rough when viewed under magnification.

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:13 pm

Peaks and burnished(folded) metal on cylinder bores are for amateur honers. Rod ratio affects dwell time which will affect how fast the piston moves into and away from TDC. At TDC when the piston reverses direction is when oil film is at its thinnest. Like a water skiier when the boat isn't moving, that's when you depend most on film strength, and oil retention, as well as your additive package because that affects the former 2.

Polishing the bore is only bad because it stops oil retention in conventional cylinder walls(burnished metal aka metal folded over to give a smooth appearance), again material choice has a big impact on the oil retaining capacity. Even with a very smooth surface you can have excellent oil retention. Silicone impregnated aluminum aka nikasil/lokasil/and all the other 'sils' have these properties.

There's a soup of ingredients that can be tweaked to reduce friction in key areas.

If you look at electron microscopy of cylinder bores you can often find burnished or folded metal, it shows up as dark areas on the bore.

Image

The dark areas in this image are burnished/folded metal.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Porus material, often these exotic cylinder liners are hit with what's known as a exposure step. Honed as normal, with first rough pass, second pass then an exposure step where the aluminum layer is scraped off leaving only the silicon or MMC surface which is both very smooth and porous as well. A good honed surface looks like diamonds glittering, or very shiny polished glass. No matter what the bore coating, if that thing sparkles at you in the light, it's a good hone. Valleys love to refract and reflect light.

Image
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:00 pm
Porus material, often these exotic cylinder liners are hit with what's known as a exposure step. Honed as normal, with first rough pass, second pass then an exposure step where the aluminum layer is scraped off leaving only the silicon or MMC surface which is both very smooth and porous as well. A good honed surface looks like diamonds glittering, or very shiny polished glass. No matter what the bore coating, if that thing sparkles at you in the light, it's a good hone. Valleys love to refract and reflect light.

https://cdn.myonlinestore.eu/945c2349-6 ... e808d3.jpg
Someone messed up the shape of that crankshaft

:P

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godlameroso
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Flat plane crank ;)

Funny story Honda's blocks are less straight than their crankshafts, so they use bearing shells of different thickness for the top and bottom half to true the block to the crank.

Image
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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godlameroso
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I wonder who their mystery customer is who uses 1200 grit diamond stones to finish their cylinders :-$

The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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lio007
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PURE Honda-PU sound:

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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lio007 wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:48 pm
PURE Honda-PU sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBi9ScayWAE
I love sound at 0,08 and sound at 2,57.

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Jaisonas
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Any news/thoughts from Wasari-san about this year's spec? Will they go the safe route like last year or super aggressive?

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godlameroso
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Jaisonas wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:25 pm
Any news/thoughts from Wasari-san about this year's spec? Will they go the safe route like last year or super aggressive?
Always have a margin of safety, Honda built 2020 power unit without realizing the margin of the new materials. Now they not only know, but can work better with it. Imagine if you work out, you get stronger, can lift more, but you don't take advantage of your strength. 2020 was like that, could bench press 90kg easy, probably 120kg is your limit(with stamina in mind), but you stay at 90 pushing to 100. Now 2021 say 130kg is your limit, and you can use it all if you want to.

So with safety margin, let's say 110 would be the baseline number this season.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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_cerber1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:36 pm
Always have a margin of safety, Honda built 2020 power unit without realizing the margin of the new materials. Now they not only know, but can work better with it. Imagine if you work out, you get stronger, can lift more, but you don't take advantage of your strength. 2020 was like that, could bench press 90kg easy, probably 120kg is your limit(with stamina in mind), but you stay at 90 pushing to 100. Now 2021 say 130kg is your limit, and you can use it all if you want to.

So with safety margin, let's say 110 would be the baseline number this season.
You are again making some kind of amateurs out of Honda engineers. As if they do not know what they are doing, what they are working with, they act solely on a whim and at random. I am convinced that no one in F1 adheres to these principles of work. It all starts with calculations and analysis, and at the time of the launch of the PU, all its characteristics are known and they only need to be confirmed on the stand and on the track. No one will risk introducing poorly understood materials or technologies, in the hope of being lucky or not. F1 employs top-class engineers with vast knowledge in their fields, and you turn them into tuning enthusiasts.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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_cerber1 wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:48 am
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:36 pm
Always have a margin of safety, Honda built 2020 power unit without realizing the margin of the new materials. Now they not only know, but can work better with it. Imagine if you work out, you get stronger, can lift more, but you don't take advantage of your strength. 2020 was like that, could bench press 90kg easy, probably 120kg is your limit(with stamina in mind), but you stay at 90 pushing to 100. Now 2021 say 130kg is your limit, and you can use it all if you want to.

So with safety margin, let's say 110 would be the baseline number this season.
You are again making some kind of amateurs out of Honda engineers. As if they do not know what they are doing, what they are working with, they act solely on a whim and at random. I am convinced that no one in F1 adheres to these principles of work. It all starts with calculations and analysis, and at the time of the launch of the PU, all its characteristics are known and they only need to be confirmed on the stand and on the track. No one will risk introducing poorly understood materials or technologies, in the hope of being lucky or not. F1 employs top-class engineers with vast knowledge in their fields, and you turn them into tuning enthusiasts.
You're making gods out of humans. No one knows everything, NO ONE. If you think all the engine guys in Honda know everything there is to know, how do you explain the constant development? You don't need to develop anything if you already know it all. You will go directly to the best design you know, with all the confidence that is the best one.

You don't run 5 power units in parallel, constantly iterate, or change things if you already know everything and have pure confidence in your omniscience.

Calculations are assumptions, you are honestly saying assumptions are more powerful than actual science. I'm sorry but I cannot agree with your perspective.

The people at Honda are scientists, they investigate nature with experiments. If you build things without redundancies, only with calculations, you get this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida ... e_collapse

Safety margin is important.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee