Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Wouter
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Honda will say goodbye to Formula 1 after 2021, but will not do so without a bang. At least, this is what La Gazzetta dello Sport suggests. Honda has worked on the latest version of the power source in various areas.

"The Honda power unit represents a deeply developed version of the RA620H of 2020", so the analysis about the Japanese engines is kicked off with the Italian medium. No expense was spared in developing the engine, which looks at certain areas that the competition has also analyzed. What Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari have learned from that analysis is left open.

Where exactly did the changes take place with the renewed power source?
" It seems as if enormous steps have been taken in the configuration of the combustion chamber that will benefit thermodynamic efficiency," says Paolo Filisetti, who works for the pink sports newspaper. Honda hopes to make great progress on efficiency in the combustion process compared to last year.

Electric problem solved

"In addition, the electrical component of the engine has been extremely revised", the story continues. What is meant by 'extremely revised' is not clear from the text. It was already known that Honda had some problems with the distribution of electrical power from the power source. This power was released unevenly during the race, a problem that Max Verstappen regularly heard about in 2020.

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Craigy
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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:19 pm
No chains.
Heavy.
They resonate at lower frquencies.
Reversing them causes whip. Imagine that on an ERS-K going from boost to harvest in a fraction of a second.

Snorked
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Looks like Honda released the 2019 PU to Japanese magazines, Austria engine


Image

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godlameroso
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Wouter wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:14 pm
Honda will say goodbye to Formula 1 after 2021, but will not do so without a bang. At least, this is what La Gazzetta dello Sport suggests. Honda has worked on the latest version of the power source in various areas.

"The Honda power unit represents a deeply developed version of the RA620H of 2020", so the analysis about the Japanese engines is kicked off with the Italian medium. No expense was spared in developing the engine, which looks at certain areas that the competition has also analyzed. What Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari have learned from that analysis is left open.

Where exactly did the changes take place with the renewed power source?
" It seems as if enormous steps have been taken in the configuration of the combustion chamber that will benefit thermodynamic efficiency," says Paolo Filisetti, who works for the pink sports newspaper. Honda hopes to make great progress on efficiency in the combustion process compared to last year.

Electric problem solved

"In addition, the electrical component of the engine has been extremely revised", the story continues. What is meant by 'extremely revised' is not clear from the text. It was already known that Honda had some problems with the distribution of electrical power from the power source. This power was released unevenly during the race, a problem that Max Verstappen regularly heard about in 2020.
The simplest most direct way to improve thermal efficiency is to increase the compression ratio. Simple however does not mean easy. Because it is more than just 'make the piston closer to the cylinder head'. Everything else must be considered as well. Valves, valve opening, intake and exhaust ports, everything has to be revised. Furthermore, higher compression ratio increases pumping losses, increases friction, increases detonation chances, heat, etc.

The benefits are obviously higher thermal efficiency, which means lower fuel consumption can be realized, and thus more fuel can be burned, to be harvested by the energy recovery system which in turn means higher deployment.

There has been a big jump, in CR from 2020 to 2021, as high as they were planning on running in 2022.

The most impressive aspect of the power unit is how it's become part of the chassis. Between 2019 and 2021 it is a HUGE improvement in the engine installation.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Singabule
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My biggest concern still the start, especially in the wet. If you look at the AT02 start practice, the pick up and transition from releasing the clutch from about 10000rpm then drop to low rpm, really shaky and could lead to severe spin. I don't know that was clutch issue or just mapping issue or their combustion concept, but it really need to be sorted out. Glad they revise their electrical but it wouldn't guarantee no more clipping, I think just remedy of honda inconsistent power delivery mode that sometimes change itself and make Max car like walk in the park in few occasions last year

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ispano6
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Snorked wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:24 pm
Looks like Honda released the 2019 PU to Japanese magazines, Austria engine


https://abload.de/img/honda2019qqk36.jpg
I have this issue and hi res pics of the PU, will consider uploading them soon. The images appear to be taken in the lobby of Honda HQ in Aoyama, so I think it's open to the public. It's actually right next to the race winning AT01 of Gaslys that is also on display. Regarding the article, its mainly about last year and how lock down, quarantine and being in the team bubble was like. The 2nd part is about what Yamamoto's hopes are for the season, his thoughts on his final year in F1, what he thinks will be expected of him after F1. He talks about how grateful he is to Alpha Tauri and Red Bull, for having faith in Honda, and how they want to repay them with a strong PU to take over after Honda leaves F1. His biggest hope is how fans and those involved will look back and think "Wow, what Honda did was pretty great".

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Tizz
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_cerber1 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:14 am
Of course, people cannot know everything at once. For this, there are special departments of promising developments, which are engaged in the study of new things. After carrying out the calculation, analysis and a full cycle of tests, they give their opinion on whether it is possible to use a new material or technology in the future. Nobody will be involved in experiments on a motor that will go in the season.
I would like to argue that going into the season is the biggest test and experiment of it all.

First of all you are going to test your designcapabilities against other manufacturers. But apart from that, every test in the lab, on the dyno or in the climate chamber is specified so it can be repeated. That is being achieved by controlling variables or excluding them from the setup. This means that every test-setup is a simplification of the reality. This will give you the opportunity to detect flaws and problems earlier which makes it cheaper to solve, you got more time to come up with a proper solution and you can verify the problems is gone. The downside is that your testcoverage is limited. So with all your tests done and no further problems detected going in to the season you are exposing your car to new circumstances. That makes it just an other test and the only difference is that you will find a different kind of issues.

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etusch
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Tizz wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:24 am
I would like to argue that going into the season is the biggest test and experiment of it all.

First of all you are going to test your designcapabilities against other manufacturers. But apart from that, every test in the lab, on the dyno or in the climate chamber is specified so it can be repeated. That is being achieved by controlling variables or excluding them from the setup. This means that every test-setup is a simplification of the reality. This will give you the opportunity to detect flaws and problems earlier which makes it cheaper to solve, you got more time to come up with a proper solution and you can verify the problems is gone. The downside is that your testcoverage is limited. So with all your tests done and no further problems detected going in to the season you are exposing your car to new circumstances. That makes it just an other test and the only difference is that you will find a different kind of issues.
As you've said, it is more important than earlier to make a good preparation to preseason test. In these area I saw that Mercedes was only team arriving there fully ready by now. they just go out and making laps from the first hours of testing.

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Tizz
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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:37 pm
If you see heavy burnishing that is abnormal wear. Normally the peaks would be honed properly to prevent them from folding, according to you, like that.

At TDC there is no hydrodynamic lubrication it literally stops and reverses. So yep. Boundary lubrication. Then a bit mixed lubrication at the piston gets going again. Then it goes hydronamic.

For the peaks and valleys there is an ideal range to have best lubrication.

There are special materials that are smoother than the typical bore finish. And they don't need to be cross honed in the way iron does for example. But they still have a level of roughness to trap oil. They dont have a that geometric hatch pattern but they are still rough when viewed under magnification.

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:13 pm

Peaks and burnished(folded) metal on cylinder bores are for amateur honers. Rod ratio affects dwell time which will affect how fast the piston moves into and away from TDC. At TDC when the piston reverses direction is when oil film is at its thinnest. Like a water skiier when the boat isn't moving, that's when you depend most on film strength, and oil retention, as well as your additive package because that affects the former 2.

Polishing the bore is only bad because it stops oil retention in conventional cylinder walls(burnished metal aka metal folded over to give a smooth appearance), again material choice has a big impact on the oil retaining capacity. Even with a very smooth surface you can have excellent oil retention. Silicone impregnated aluminum aka nikasil/lokasil/and all the other 'sils' have these properties.

There's a soup of ingredients that can be tweaked to reduce friction in key areas.

If you look at electron microscopy of cylinder bores you can often find burnished or folded metal, it shows up as dark areas on the bore.

https://files.catbox.moe/b9udxi.jpg

The dark areas in this image are burnished/folded metal.
Thanks for this excellent diskussion gentlemen !

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HPD
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Yuki: "I think Honda made quite a good step compared to previous engines from previous years. Especially the performance side for the qualifying lap. I feel gains, especially in the top speed so that’s positive.

But also on the other side, there’s problems with the off-throttle shifting and also a bit of issues with consistency. But definitely gave us gains for the power so for Honda a really good, positive day."

https://www.racefans.net/2021/03/13/rac ... p-13-03-4/

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godlameroso
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Inconsistent ERS operation, and snappy off throttle?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Zynerji
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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:50 pm
Inconsistent ERS operation, and snappy off throttle?
off-throttle shift problem sounds like low hydraulic line pressure from the pump as the revs drop...

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godlameroso
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Zynerji wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:24 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:50 pm
Inconsistent ERS operation, and snappy off throttle?
off-throttle shift problem sounds like low hydraulic line pressure from the pump as the revs drop...
Say you have a check valve that depends on a certain oil pressure, how do you increase oil pressure in the unit without affecting oil pressure else where?

Say for example a hydraulic tensioner that has a pressure regulating valve that functions as a damper, and the problem with this unit is that it doesn't supply enough hydraulic pressure at low revs because elsewhere in the system there is a pressure loss. This piece bolts on externally, then what can you do if spring tension and internal materials cannot be changed?

Answer? In this particular case, you simply increase oil feed size, and machine component so that it sits closer. This has two benefits.

1.) Oil volume is increased thus internal pressure is increased. As pressure is a measure of volume and flow, by increasing oil feed, oil outlet stays the same, thus internal pressure increases.

2.) Machining component so it sits closer means the hydraulic component travels a lower distance, thus lowering hydraulic pressure requirement.

Combination of above points means components can remain as they are with minimum modification to original function, installation, or use.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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etusch
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Zynerji wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:24 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:50 pm
Inconsistent ERS operation, and snappy off throttle?
off-throttle shift problem sounds like low hydraulic line pressure from the pump as the revs drop...
off-throttle shift means downshifting right ? I think it is harder part of seamless gb.

kfrantzios
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Zynerji wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:24 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:50 pm
Inconsistent ERS operation, and snappy off throttle?
off-throttle shift problem sounds like low hydraulic line pressure from the pump as the revs drop...
Could that be software related?