Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:31 pm

Well, Honda may be lured back if there is the promise of hydrogen fuel cells and other technologies like 100% biofuels. In the meantime they will just have to be content with competing in Indy, MotoGP, and LMP etc. Perhaps a foray into Formula E. It hasn't been mentioned in western news yet but my wife was telling me Honda is going to be developing rocket engines for use in space flight. Interesting news to come.
I don't think Honda will interest FE, as it doesn't give competition to Honda to develop their own CE and Battery.

restless
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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up until last year Honda was saying batteries are not good and future is hydrogen...
Now they make a 180-degree turn, even made deal with GM - GM will build for them a Honda and Acura models, sold in NA
Feels like upper mgmt in Honda struggle which way to go. All these changes in direction are not good for the brand

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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restless wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:17 pm
up until last year Honda was saying batteries are not good and future is hydrogen...
Now they make a 180-degree turn, even made deal with GM - GM will build for them a Honda and Acura models, sold in NA
Feels like upper mgmt in Honda struggle which way to go. All these changes in direction are not good for the brand
I watched some video at dw that was about hydrogen powered cars. An engineer who is working on hydrogen systems were saying that German Gov started to support hydrogen tech and hence he is expecting German Car makers will interest more seriously with hydrogen cars. I believe that when western brands start to use this as fuel they will make better commercial about it compared eastern brands and human will be canalised to that side.
Electric cars which are using battery for power are very bad for world, when they crashed or when their battery is dead, very bad garbage will be full everywhere. Nobody wants to think/talk about result of electric cars when they become garbage because various reasons. Because they want to sell their new product anyway.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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restless wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:17 pm
up until last year Honda was saying batteries are not good and future is hydrogen...
Now they make a 180-degree turn, even made deal with GM - GM will build for them a Honda and Acura models, sold in NA
Feels like upper mgmt in Honda struggle which way to go. All these changes in direction are not good for the brand
This is because they are developing a battery that can compete with the ICE, and when they have it, and can make an electric power unit weigh the same as an ICE, while keeping costs reasonable, then they don't need to use gasoline. Instead we'll burn coal and uranium to fill our cars.

Currently the power unit in the Honda Accord weighs ~400kg total minus axles. This includes gasoline tank, full tank, fuel system, transmission, engine, and fluids. Vehicle mass is roughly ~1500kg and the ICE is rated at 180kW. Honda seems to think they can make an electric car with similar weight range and performance, and if they can, then they no longer need to make gas powered cars.

The final hurdle is charging time as well.
Saishū kōnā

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Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:55 pm
restless wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:17 pm
up until last year Honda was saying batteries are not good and future is hydrogen...
Now they make a 180-degree turn, even made deal with GM - GM will build for them a Honda and Acura models, sold in NA
Feels like upper mgmt in Honda struggle which way to go. All these changes in direction are not good for the brand
This is because they are developing a battery that can compete with the ICE, and when they have it, and can make an electric power unit weigh the same as an ICE, while keeping costs reasonable, then they don't need to use gasoline. Instead we'll burn coal and uranium to fill our cars.

Currently the power unit in the Honda Accord weighs ~400kg total minus axles. This includes gasoline tank, full tank, fuel system, transmission, engine, and fluids. Vehicle mass is roughly ~1500kg and the ICE is rated at 180kW. Honda seems to think they can make an electric car with similar weight range and performance, and if they can, then they no longer need to make gas powered cars.

The final hurdle is charging time as well.
Here in NL we have a lot of overcapacity on windy & sunny days from solar panels and wind energy. So much so it overloads the electrical main power grid already. It would be very good to have a lot of cars sitting everywhere, hooked up to the grid and soaking up the excess power. Peak excess Can also be used to make hydrogen for trucks. Locally in areas with lots of windmills and solar panels. Doesn’t need to be coal nor even uranium.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:55 am
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:31 pm

Well, Honda may be lured back if there is the promise of hydrogen fuel cells and other technologies like 100% biofuels. In the meantime they will just have to be content with competing in Indy, MotoGP, and LMP etc. Perhaps a foray into Formula E. It hasn't been mentioned in western news yet but my wife was telling me Honda is going to be developing rocket engines for use in space flight. Interesting news to come.
I don't think Honda will interest FE, as it doesn't give competition to Honda to develop their own CE and Battery.
You never know, Formula E can evolve and converge toward a common electrification with F1. There's talk of hydrogen fuel cell for the future of F1, so the sky is the limit (not literally anymore though) :)

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hollus
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Back on topic, please!
¡Puxa Esportin!

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hollus
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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A full page of posts is gone. H2 fuel cells as a viable road vehicle option? Nuclear rockets as the way for mankind out of the solar system?

Not in the Honda F1 power unit thread.

As usual, a reminder to stay EXTRA on-topic in the actual F1 car threads and on the actual F1 power unit threads. Because, you know, this is an F1 forum and those are the things that compete.
Off topics are cool... but not on those threads.
¡Puxa Esportin!

N21
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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On Dutch F1 sites I am reading that the ICE of Honda is at least on par with Mercedes, but Mercedes total PU output is still a bit higher because of their MGU-K.

This does not make much sense right? Because the MGU-K is capped at max. 120(ish) Kw if I am not mistaken.

As for the clipping issues of the Honda PU: these have been solved as well.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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N21 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:58 am
On Dutch F1 sites I am reading that the ICE of Honda is at least on par with Mercedes, but Mercedes total PU output is still a bit higher because of their MGU-K.

This does not make much sense right? Because the MGU-K is capped at max. 120(ish) Kw if I am not mistaken.

As for the clipping issues of the Honda PU: these have been solved as well.
Marco also had said that merc has a slight advantage if they had a full battery.
Mgu-k is 120 kw limited but there should be some variables which cause electic motor perform better compared another one, because of it's more advanced engineering. Mercedes is working with mgu-k much longer than honda.
I watched a video that talks about Tesla EM. I am just saying this as example. It was talking about torqless point of EM because of magnetism and was saying that tesla engineers made it (I think rotor) stop predetermined position everytime for better torque delivery at start of vehicle to have better start and acceleration. So there are different tricks to obtain better performance even with same motor.

If this is only weak point of Honda now, I am sure that ( I was always sure about that ) they can make it also better to become unquestionably best out there.

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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We know the CE and battery have had issues in the early races aside from Max, his units likely have been conserved and detuned while the rest have been pushed to the limit. Tanabe makes a point to say everything ran smoothly in Portugal so they likely know the limits and can continue to develop the ancillary components or software to manage the limits. It is all fine tuning and a delicate balance.

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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120kw is the electrical limit. So the more efficient the MGU-K is, more power it delivers at the crank.

dans79
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:39 pm
120kw is the electrical limit. So the more efficient the MGU-K is, more power it delivers at the crank.
Yep, The technical regulations show where you can gain an advantage.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -03-05.pdf

5.2.2
Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram
shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations.

When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing
line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start
of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).

Electrical DC measurements will be used to verify that the energy and power requirements
are being respected.


A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.
169 100 98 7

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dans79 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 10:40 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:39 pm
120kw is the electrical limit. So the more efficient the MGU-K is, more power it delivers at the crank.
Yep, The technical regulations show where you can gain an advantage.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -03-05.pdf
5.2.2
Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram
shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations ...
Electrical DC measurements will be used to verify that the energy and power requirements
are being respected.


A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.
this means .....
the electrical limit (power from the DC line) is 126.3 kW .... so ....

if the efficiency from electrical input power to mechanical power delivered to the crankshaft is 95% .....
the mechanical power delivered to the crankshaft is 120 kW

if the efficiency is over 95% the legal mechanical power could slightly exceed 120 kW

McMika98
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E03F4fkXsAA ... me=900x900
By @hlawiczka

Only Honda cars are at risk of penalty this early on. I think its pretty clear that they did what Renault did in 2019; start season with max full beans on engine to make a statement whilst the competition were playing conservative.
Didn't realise Yuki is on 3rd set of EC.