Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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nzjrs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:45 am
It wasn't really a lightweight issue before, PU weights are mandated.

Still they're showing the exact same problems as they had with vibration issues back in the Mclaren the last time they tried a tiny PU
I think 'exact same' is an over-eager diagnosis from one un-sourced Italian story. Also, wasnt the Tsonda retirement fuel pressure?

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 5:27 am
PhillipM wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:45 am
It wasn't really a lightweight issue before, PU weights are mandated.

Still they're showing the exact same problems as they had with vibration issues back in the Mclaren the last time they tried a tiny PU
I think 'exact same' is an over-eager diagnosis from one un-sourced Italian story. Also, wasnt the Tsonda retirement fuel pressure?
Seriously, you know, being a race winning engine and "enormous" power, it is nothing like the RA615H. It's a beast trying to break free of it's shackles.

Lock2nl
Lock2nl
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 5:27 am
PhillipM wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:45 am
It wasn't really a lightweight issue before, PU weights are mandated.

Still they're showing the exact same problems as they had with vibration issues back in the Mclaren the last time they tried a tiny PU
I think 'exact same' is an over-eager diagnosis from one un-sourced Italian story. Also, wasnt the Tsonda retirement fuel pressure?
I agree about the 'over-eager' conclusion. As long as no other serious source comes up with something of a confirmation there is no reason to believe it.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 5:13 pm
I mean it's a return to the same issues that plagued them trying to run the tiny engine back in the mclaren days, same thing, issues with misfires, issues with connections from vibration, and issues on the gearbox. Can't all be pure coincidence.
PhillipM wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:45 am
It wasn't really a lightweight issue before, PU weights are mandated.

Still they're showing the exact same problems as they had with vibration issues back in the Mclaren the last time they tried a tiny PU

They don't showing the exact same problems as a few years ago. Where is your proof? Which same problems?
You believe this Italian article without a source. Do you have proof that their facts are right?
I said this before, why is there no other site who tells the same story, because when it were true
it would be huge news about Honda.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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"Lightweight" is something that can be talked about and mandated minimum weight rule doesn't ensure that pu manufcutrers achieved ( or chose) to make their pu in that weight. If others heavier and your's lighter, that is it.

If more than one formula 1 news site talk about same issue it still doesn't mean it is true. I remember well that I read at motorsport something about oil problem of Honda pu, I think it was 2017. They were talking that it is big issue and Honda still don't know basics of F1. They need to redesign engine to solve the issue. But it was just a small work and issue was not there at next race.
I knew a few journalist and they are not clever but just acts like they are, most importantly they are not honest.

PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Okay let me answer that with knowledge straight from Mclaren when they were running the Hondas then - the Honda engines didn't even quite meet the minimum weight limits, especially not the split turbo one - the 3 year old merc was lighter in that guise - yet that didn't have a problem - so no, it wasn't a lightweighting issue.
It's was a size and stiffness issue, combined with unstable combustion, that created vibration problems with things like cracking exhausts, oil lines, connectors, etc.

You sit here and tell me there's no issues yet the Honda cars are chewing through components already, there's gearbox issues on all the cars, and Max has been complaining almost every race telling the team the gearbox fluffed or skipped a shift when he gets on the power out of a corner (shifts are so fast these days that's usually an instability issue that they can't keep up with) - this is the exact same stuff that happened at Mclaren when they ran a smaller block and pushed the combustion side as far as they could trying to keep up.

Am I saying there *is* a vibration issue? No, I'm saying you shouldn't be dismissing a source when there's signs there might be, there's enough info to start to correlate things but that's all at the moment.

Especially with silly comments like this that add nothing:
Seriously, you know, being a race winning engine and "enormous" power, it is nothing like the RA615H. It's a beast trying to break free of it's shackles.

Can't be anything wrong, it's a 'beast'
Don't be silly, every PU on the grid has room for improvement. #-o

Lock2nl
Lock2nl
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Philip, the fact that they had the issue before should actually mean they now have the knowledge to prevent it.

But let's not consider it to be impossible. Is the fact that
-they suffered from vibrations in the past
-RB has dropped in pace compared with Mercedes
enough to consider a report from an Italian website enough to make vibrations a causal factor of the performance drop?

PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Doesn't mean they fixed it, it might just mean they're back to pushing things so hard now they know they're in with a shot and so close to Mercedes (and they're happy to give it everything in the last year regardless), that they're getting instabilities back and that's bringing the same issues up.

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 3:49 pm
Doesn't mean they fixed it, it might just mean they're back to pushing things so hard now they know they're in with a shot and so close to Mercedes (and they're happy to give it everything in the last year regardless), that they're getting instabilities back and that's bringing the same issues up.
Before Honda had to turn down their PUs they were clearly demonstrating power that made Mercedes worried and Toto and Lewis saying the Honda engine was ahead. The word enormous came from Toto himself.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 3:49 pm
Doesn't mean they fixed it, it might just mean they're back to pushing things so hard now they know they're in with a shot and so close to Mercedes (and they're happy to give it everything in the last year regardless), that they're getting instabilities back and that's bringing the same issues up.
this is just what you want to see and very far away from realities.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 1:27 pm
Okay let me answer that with knowledge straight from Mclaren when they were running the Hondas then - the Honda engines didn't even quite meet the minimum weight limits, especially not the split turbo one - the 3 year old merc was lighter in that guise - yet that didn't have a problem - so no, it wasn't a lightweighting issue.
It's was a size and stiffness issue, combined with unstable combustion, that created vibration problems with things like cracking exhausts, oil lines, connectors, etc.

You sit here and tell me there's no issues yet the Honda cars are chewing through components already, there's gearbox issues on all the cars, and Max has been complaining almost every race telling the team the gearbox fluffed or skipped a shift when he gets on the power out of a corner (shifts are so fast these days that's usually an instability issue that they can't keep up with) - this is the exact same stuff that happened at Mclaren when they ran a smaller block and pushed the combustion side as far as they could trying to keep up.

Am I saying there *is* a vibration issue? No, I'm saying you shouldn't be dismissing a source when there's signs there might be, there's enough info to start to correlate things but that's all at the moment.

Especially with silly comments like this that add nothing:
Seriously, you know, being a race winning engine and "enormous" power, it is nothing like the RA615H. It's a beast trying to break free of it's shackles.

Can't be anything wrong, it's a 'beast'
Don't be silly, every PU on the grid has room for improvement. #-o
This are nonesense. Honda didn't completely change pu when they start working with TR and that was a decent pu. After that McLaren themselfs also understand that problem was not Honda but themself. This understanding bring McLaren where they are now. But fanboys still talks with eric bollier head

dans79
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 5:20 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 3:49 pm
Doesn't mean they fixed it, it might just mean they're back to pushing things so hard now they know they're in with a shot and so close to Mercedes (and they're happy to give it everything in the last year regardless), that they're getting instabilities back and that's bringing the same issues up.
this is just what you want to see and very far away from realities.
The same thing kind of holds true from the other side of argument as well.


Even if you set aside RBR vs Merc, how do you explain the drop in relative performance of Alpha Tauri? Gasly qualified 5th in Bahrain and Imola, but 9th in portugal, and 12th in Spain.

here is the pre event PU component usage document from Monaco.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... to_now.pdf

Honda powered cars are the only ones to use more than 1 ES or CE.
Driver   ES   CE
Yuki      3    3
Pierre    2    2
Sergio    2    2
Max       1    1
176 101 100 7

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bigblue
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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There does seem to be something going on, Honda have some reliability issues around their hybrid components, and it seems like they may have gone a bit more conservative lately (though it's hard to separate from all the other factors in play).

I'm happy to put the Italian article under "speculation". Who knows, maybe they heard something, maybe they didn't, maybe they put 2 and 2 together and came out with 22. So far it's one source that I haven't heard of before. No big deal. We'll see.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dans79 wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 5:50 pm
etusch wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 5:20 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 3:49 pm
Doesn't mean they fixed it, it might just mean they're back to pushing things so hard now they know they're in with a shot and so close to Mercedes (and they're happy to give it everything in the last year regardless), that they're getting instabilities back and that's bringing the same issues up.
this is just what you want to see and very far away from realities.
The same thing kind of holds true from the other side of argument as well.


Even if you set aside RBR vs Merc, how do you explain the drop in relative performance of Alpha Tauri? Gasly qualified 5th in Bahrain and Imola, but 9th in portugal, and 12th in Spain.

here is the pre event PU component usage document from Monaco.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... to_now.pdf

Honda powered cars are the only ones to use more than 1 ES or CE.
Driver   ES   CE
Yuki      3    3
Pierre    2    2
Sergio    2    2
Max       1    1
However, it is not mentioned in that overview that the parts are all still in the pool, because upon further investigation
it turned out that there was nothing wrong with the exception of an ES from Gasly that was no longer usable.
Yuki crashed and then they replaced all 5 components, because he had to start at the back anyway.

If you place an overview here or elsewhere, it is nice to place the whole in the correct context and to mention it. :wink:

dans79
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 6:41 pm
However, it is not mentioned in that overview that the parts are all still in the pool, because upon further investigation
it turned out that there was nothing wrong with the exception of an ES from Gasly that was no longer usable.
Yuki crashed and then they replaced all 5 components, because he had to start at the back anyway.

If you place an overview here or elsewhere, it is nice to place the whole in the correct context and to mention it. :wink:
I thought them still being in the pool would be a given.
176 101 100 7