Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Pany
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With 3rd engine so soon, the title is flying away. Mercedes is repeating what they did to ferrrari starting from summer. New upgrades, super engine turned on and final superiority

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Sieper
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Since we are in a music theme today. And another bites the dust! Thank you Bottas.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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godlameroso
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Checo's No.2?
Saishū kōnā

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Wouter
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Google translated from AMuS.

In terms of engine power, Mercedes is suddenly ahead of Honda again.

Even before the PU change, Red Bull made a statement in Budapest that amazed friends and foes alike. As in Silverstone, Mercedes suddenly dominated the straights again. On Friday with up to half a second and five km / h at top speed.

In England the difference on the power sections was even bigger. Red Bull then reacted at the Hungaroring with a smaller rear wing from Saturday, but that only resulted in a tie. That only allowed one conclusion: Mercedes overtook Honda again in Power-Play.

But how are such jumps possible with a frozen engine development? How can you fall from one extreme to the other from one race to the next? Red Bull maintains stiffly: "We are driving the same power as in France and Austria. Mercedes has gained performance." That is denied by the World Cup opponent. "We have the feeling that Honda has taken a step backwards. Everything is exhausted with our engine."

From the Mercedes corner you can hear that Honda has been slowed down by a directive of the FIA. Allegedly there has been a disagreement about how the Japanese operate their energy management for four months.
When asked, the FIA ​​did not know anything about a measure against Honda.

Another explanation comes from the group of Red Bull. Ferrari should also be on the trail of this theory. Allegedly, Mercedes cools the air collector (plenum) in certain phases in order to have more power available. Before a qualifying round or the start of the race, this would be allowed, but only with archaic methods. So you can cool down the plenary session with dry ice. But the effect evaporates relatively quickly.

Systematic cooling of the plenary would at least be a gray area or not allowed at all. "Especially if you support the cooler air in the collector for a short time by injecting more gasoline," it says from the Red Bull warehouse.

One became suspicious when Lewis Hamilton caught up with Verstappen every time before the Copse corner at Silverstone with a considerable excess of power.

Hoffman900
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Weren't Mercedes slow out of the gate due to deployment issues? Wasn't there also speculation that Honda had the engine turned up to make a statement in the beginning of the season?

Not saying Honda hasn't been slowed down or Mercedes isn't playing in the grey area, but they also may have made refinements to the rest of the system via software / map updates. Another aspect you can't rule out is that Honda is seeing something with wear and are having to turn down the engine some. If this is true, they'll never admit it publicly and easier to just say the other team is cheating / grey area / etc.

It's pretty clear they're both pointing fingers at each other "You sped up" / "No, you slowed down". Both sides are smart enough to lie or make misleading statements to the media to try to control the narrative, so I would take the AMuS article with a grain of salt.

Mercedes straight line speed has also coincided with aero updates they have made as well. Since we're not racing dyno's, you can't rule out the impact of that.

hkbruin
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Once again the FIA AND MERCEDES colluding again to lessen the embarrassment that Honda was causing them in the first half of the season. If Honda discovered a way to better utilize energy deployment and it’s only a grey area because the FIA doesn’t understand how they did it, or perhaps the rules leave ambiguity they interpreted as a way to trot the lines of legality, then by all means they should allow Honda to continue with their progress rather than stunting them. The FIA NEVER MADE FERRARI OR MERC de-tune their engines mid-season even during the oil-burning scandal or that gimmick DAS crap. Twice they made Honda de-tune their engines and also implemented more stringent power unit modes during races just when Honda “caught up” to the other teams’ antics. Honda and Red Bull were going to increase that gap in the championship and Torpedo Bottas (whom I bet won’t be in a Merc next year) will be asked to do the dirty work.
It’s obvious to see that Merc stopped playing fairly once Red Bull Powertrains started poaching their engineers.

Hoffman900
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hkbruin wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:18 pm
Once again the FIA AND MERCEDES colluding again to lessen the embarrassment that Honda was causing them in the first half of the season. If Honda discovered a way to better utilize energy deployment and it’s only a grey area because the FIA doesn’t understand how they did it, or perhaps the rules leave ambiguity they interpreted as a way to trot the lines of legality, then by all means they should allow Honda to continue with their progress rather than stunting them. The FIA NEVER MADE FERRARI OR MERC de-tune their engines mid-season even during the oil-burning scandal or that gimmick DAS crap. Twice they made Honda de-tune their engines and also implemented more stringent power unit modes during races just when Honda “caught up” to the other teams’ antics. Honda and Red Bull were going to increase that gap in the championship and Torpedo Bottas (whom I bet won’t be in a Merc next year) will be asked to do the dirty work.
It’s obvious to see that Merc stopped playing fairly once Red Bull Powertrains started poaching their engineers.
Relax, it's all speculation. I don't really think this post fits in the thread as it's entirely an emotional argument.

The real TBD is how Honda can keep these engines together for the rest of the season.

hkbruin
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They won’t be able to because Red Bull doesn’t want Honda to be conservative during the races. They’ll most likely take on a 4th/5th engine with grid penalties because 1. Red Bull will not back down this season even if it will compromise next year and 2. There will be another race where a Red Bull will be taken out by another Merc.

The outcome I am hoping for is what Binotto suggested: if a collision is caused by another driver then their team should be held financially responsible for repair costs and teams who have lost an entire PU at the fault of another team should not be sanctioned grid penalties.

Hoffman900
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Has anyone been digging through Honda’s R&D library and found anything related to their hybrid era PU’s? Even just a trickle down technology to another application?

If so, please share.

hkbruin
hkbruin
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Actually the only mid-season change by the FIA I would welcome is if they scrapped the grid penalties for extra engines taken due to damage by other teams.

saviour stivala
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Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:39 pm
Has anyone been digging through Honda’s R&D library and found anything related to their hybrid era PU’s? Even just a trickle down technology to another application?

If so, please share.
At around 2017 I read somewhere that Honda had patented their MGU-H for use on road cars (US20170350315A).

ryaan2904
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hkbruin wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:34 pm
The outcome I am hoping for is what Binotto suggested: if a collision is caused by another driver then their team should be held financially responsible for repair costs and teams who have lost an entire PU at the fault of another team should not be sanctioned grid penalties.
Could likely happen, now that Charles' engine is gone too and with him getting a 10 place grid penalty and stroll getting 5, Ferrari will make some demands.
It naturally benefits redbull to join in as well :wink:

Hoffman900
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So FIA/Liberty turn F1 into a psuedospec series and make sweeping rule changes to make the racing closer, and now we want teams to have to pay for damage to other teams, which is a byproduct of close racing?

Got it.

I can’t wait until teams have to issue itemized invoices to other teams for damages with costs and hourly rates. They should make those public.

Or a team like Haas looking to commitment what is essentially insurance fraud.

It’s really hard to not be snarky on here sometimes…

Anyway, back on topic…

Lock2nl
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Indeed.
--- happens. Mostly if you do not want it...
The only reason why Red Bull en Ferrari put it this way is to get it on the FIA agenda so some kind of solution will come out of it.

And solutions can be simple. Within the budget cap every team needs to set aside 5 mln in case of incidental damages. Or more. If approved by FIA.

Another solution could be that all teams are allowed to spend an extra 5 mln on top of the budget cap in case of incidental damages.

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etusch
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FIA's new technical directive may have slowed Honda

While the technical directive sent by the FIA ​​regarding Honda's energy use in the last 4 months may have slowed down the Japanese manufacturer; According to some, Mercedes has gained "illegal" performance in its engine.

As we enter the turbo-hybrid era, Mercedes has mostly been the leader in powertrains since 2014 in both performance and durability.

However, Honda managed to raise the 2022 engine project to the 2021 season and managed to catch up with Mercedes with its new power unit developed in many areas.

In the French Grand Prix, Honda switched to its second engine and started to get ahead of Mercedes with this new engine.

In France, it was claimed that thanks to the durability updates that Honda brought with its second engine, the vibration problem in the engine was resolved and the engine could be used at full power for a longer period of time.

According to the report of AMuS, Honda was ahead of Mercedes by 15 horsepower with its new turbo feeder produced by jet engineers and with the elimination of durability concerns.

In Austria, Red Bull's advantage on the straights has grown even more, and this is not just due to Red Bull's less drag-inducing rear wing.

Mercedes thought that with the second power unit that Honda passed in France, it was able to use the engine at its full potential for a longer period of time, and it was 15 hp ahead.

However, since performance updates were not available to the engines this season, Honda said this was not possible and already stated that other manufacturers were able to control these updates.

Honda F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe responded to these claims: "Under current power unit regulations, we have to submit our changes to the FIA. You can only make changes for durability, logistics and cost reasons."

"Before we make the changes, we first need to present the change in detail to the FIA. Then the FIA ​​has to accept the change."

"The FIA ​​distributes the detailed documents we send them to all engine suppliers. So other engine suppliers are aware of the changes we've made and they need to approve the change before they happen."

"Why are we doing such a detailed investigation? Because a long time ago some teams were improving their performance by introducing stamina updates."

"Therefore, we are very careful not to increase our performance. As the season continues, it is not possible for us to improve our performance. This is my answer to these allegations."

Discussions in the engine area have seemed to have stalled for the past few weeks, but both teams consider each other to be gaining performance the "illegal" way. According to the Mercedes camp, Honda has made illegal practices related to energy use and the FIA ​​has therefore sent a technical directive to Honda.

From the Red Bull camp, it was claimed that Mercedes gained performance illegally by cooling the plenum.

Let's take a look at these claims in the paddock together.

Honda slowed down by new technical directive?
According to AMuS, the answer to this question may be "yes". According to AMuS reporters, it can be understood from the Mercedes camp that Honda has been slowed by a new technical directive, and Mercedes thinks that Honda has slowed down with the new directive.

Tanabe attributed the development of its engines from France to the Japanese manufacturer's better understanding of the engine and better management of energy use at the trackside.

Although Tanabe says they have improved in energy use and management, the FIA ​​allegedly; He's not very happy with the way Honda has used and managed the ERS in his vehicles for the past 4 months.

Therefore, it is thought that a technical directive was sent to Honda on this issue and corrections were made to the engine. However, no penalty was given to the Japanese team. Just like with the fuel flow limit thing in Ferrari's 2019 engine, the corrections made to the engines are tried to be kept secret.

Is Mercedes starting to gain performance in an "illegal" way by cooling the air intake chamber?

Again, according to AMuS, the Red Bull camp thinks that Mercedes is illegally gaining performance by cooling the air intake chamber.

The British driver was able to accelerate so well on the short straight up to Copse Bend, which is claimed to be why the 7-time world champion was able to attack Max Verstappen on that short straight in the first lap.

Cooling the air intake chamber means more power. During qualifying or at the start of the race, you can cool the air intake chamber the old-fashioned way, like dry ice. Of course, the effect of this lasts very little and probably after the first lap the air intake chamber will return to its former temperature.

However, systematic cooling of the air intake chamber is prohibited under current rules, and other teams think Mercedes has found a gray area in this area or is not following the rules. According to rumors, Ferrari is among the teams considering this.

One of the Red Bull camps told AMuS that it is illegal to cool the air intake chamber, and that "in particular, putting more fuel in the air intake chamber and delivering cold air in a shorter time" is prohibited.

Hamilton, on the other hand, denied the claims that they gained performance by using cooling methods.

The fight for the world championship is getting hotter and this time it seems that the engines will be on the agenda of the teams. These two claims may come to the fore in the coming weeks, especially as the upcoming race is on the Spa track, where engine power plays an important role.
google.transleted from = https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/fiani ... r/6641506/