Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Lock2nl wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:06 pm

And solutions can be simple. Within the budget cap every team needs to set aside 5 mln in case of incidental damages. Or more. If approved by FIA.
This is off topic, but this makes the most sense to me. You have a budget you can dip into if needed for repairs approved by the FIA. I would add that to use this accident budget comes with certain restrictions. For example, like for like parts are used to prevent an out-of-cost-cap upgrade path.

PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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That's pointless, the smaller teams still have to find the 5 mil from somewhere.

Lock2nl
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:38 am
That's pointless, the smaller teams still have to find the 5 mil from somewhere.
Why? It is no different for any of the teams. Take Haas. They had 120mln in 2020. If they have the same now, any cracked wing or broken chassis as a result of Mazespins and Schumachers in the wall will cost them the same way as in 2020.
With this reservation principle, the 'within the budget solution' means the have to make reservation for the suggested 5 mln. The remaining 115 mln is for usual F1 business. They would have done the same or similar in 2020.
However, Red Bull that intends to spend the entire 2021 budget on making the championship worth watching may have planned to spend e.g. 144 mln on car and development. The current damage count exceeds that reservation of 1 mln (total is 145mln) and the cap prevents them to solve this. So they moan. Forcing them to make a 5 mln reservation within the cap and use a regular budget of 140 mln initially would have stopped them from moaning.

At the end of the season a team can use that reservation again for the next one. So, if they did not need it, next years' budget can theoretically increase with 5 mln (as long as they stay within the budget cap). You could also imagine something like 50% of that 'repair budget' becoming available after 3/4 of the running season. So you can spend that 50% as if it were regular budget for 25% of the races to introduce new parts.

Don't forget that the cap drops to $135 mln in 2023. Most backmarker teams are already close to that number. So, in two years time there is not much of a difference in regular budgets between teams.
In addition, engine costs are excluded from the cap. If it wasn't for the penalty for a fourth one, I do not think RB and Fer would have worried about that. It is the chassis damage that hurts.

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_cerber1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:06 pm
Honda slowed down by new technical directive?
According to AMuS, the answer to this question may be "yes". According to AMuS reporters, it can be understood from the Mercedes camp that Honda has been slowed by a new technical directive, and Mercedes thinks that Honda has slowed down with the new directive.

Tanabe attributed the development of its engines from France to the Japanese manufacturer's better understanding of the engine and better management of energy use at the trackside.

Although Tanabe says they have improved in energy use and management, the FIA ​​allegedly; He's not very happy with the way Honda has used and managed the ERS in his vehicles for the past 4 months.

Therefore, it is thought that a technical directive was sent to Honda on this issue and corrections were made to the engine. However, no penalty was given to the Japanese team. Just like with the fuel flow limit thing in Ferrari's 2019 engine, the corrections made to the engines are tried to be kept secret.
Honda has denied any truth to a theory that a technical directive may have forced them to run with lower power settings.

https://racingnews365.com/honda-deny-th ... heir-power

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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_cerber1 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:21 pm


Honda has denied any truth to a theory that a technical directive may have forced them to run with lower power settings.

https://racingnews365.com/honda-deny-th ... heir-power
If Honda doesn't effected from this directive I am happy with it. But I understand that there is a directive and mercedes pointing out Honda. So it is important how fia reacting. Most importantly I want to see them investigating mercedes pu.

KelsO
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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It is really funny and sad to read such articles, given that Mercedes PU for 5 years illegally burned oil to increase power and only the question of FIA's interpretation gave legitimacy to this method. No one has the right to have an engine more powerful than a Mercedes, if it is not the Mercedes itself.
Binotto seems to have clearly responded to Mercedes' movements towards Honda, saying that according to their measurements, Honda had to reduce the engine power after Bahrain (where Honda was very strong), and then after the update they returned to their previous power.

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RZS10
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I've written something about that article in the Merc PU thread

tl:dr
there's loads of speculation, "allegedly" is being used a lot, there's contradictions and unattributed quotes and the article even implies that it's just stories and potentially just fiction.

I believe it might be better to not pay too much attention to it and just wait for some tangible information, if there will be any (it's the summer break afterall, so we can expect more wild stories).

Hoffman900
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:40 pm
I've written something about that article in the Merc PU thread

tl:dr
there's loads of speculation, "allegedly" is being used a lot, there's contradictions and unattributed quotes and the article even implies that it's just stories and potentially just fiction.

I believe it might be better to not pay too much attention to it and just wait for some tangible information, if there will be any (it's the summer break afterall, so we can expect more wild stories).
Exactly.

It's summer break and it's as good time as any to stir some crap up.

Most of the author's of these articles are as "inside" as much as any of are "inside".

blank
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Why don't the fia just introduce a rule where if the stewards have ruled one driver has taken out another, all damaged components, including the engine, be replaced without the penalty. It is any way going to be a financial if the engine is damaged, at the least they can preserve the competition like this, instead of letting f1 become a very expensive demolition derby due to competitors taking each other out to inflict penalties on one another
Last edited by blank on Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bill
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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tech directives are made public on Fridays if such exist why haven't we seen it.and tech rules are pretty explicitly you dont need 4 month to decide right from wrong

Krischnen
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bill wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:58 am
tech directives are made public on Fridays if such exist why haven't we seen it.and tech rules are pretty explicitly you dont need 4 month to decide right from wrong
These TD's are not made available to the general public. They are however send to (all) the teams. If there really was a TD, we would have probably heard more about it.

Thats also the thing that strikes me as odd... the German article talks about a TD send to Honda, in a sense that it was only send to them. Which would never happen.
Then they wrongly compare this situation to the Ferrari 2019 engine-sage. The TD's at that time DID go out to all the teams.

I dont really trust that article.

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Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Technical Directives should be public since they are effectively part of the regs. I have often wondered why they are allowed to operate in the quasi-rulebook way they do.

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Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:06 pm
FIA's new technical directive may have slowed Honda

While the technical directive sent by the FIA ​​regarding Honda's energy use in the last 4 months may have slowed down the Japanese manufacturer; According to some, Mercedes has gained "illegal" performance in its engine.

As we enter the turbo-hybrid era, Mercedes has mostly been the leader in powertrains since 2014 in both performance and durability.

However, Honda managed to raise the 2022 engine project to the 2021 season and managed to catch up with Mercedes with its new power unit developed in many areas.

In the French Grand Prix, Honda switched to its second engine and started to get ahead of Mercedes with this new engine.

In France, it was claimed that thanks to the durability updates that Honda brought with its second engine, the vibration problem in the engine was resolved and the engine could be used at full power for a longer period of time.

According to the report of AMuS, Honda was ahead of Mercedes by 15 horsepower with its new turbo feeder produced by jet engineers and with the elimination of durability concerns.

In Austria, Red Bull's advantage on the straights has grown even more, and this is not just due to Red Bull's less drag-inducing rear wing.

Mercedes thought that with the second power unit that Honda passed in France, it was able to use the engine at its full potential for a longer period of time, and it was 15 hp ahead.

However, since performance updates were not available to the engines this season, Honda said this was not possible and already stated that other manufacturers were able to control these updates.

Honda F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe responded to these claims: "Under current power unit regulations, we have to submit our changes to the FIA. You can only make changes for durability, logistics and cost reasons."

"Before we make the changes, we first need to present the change in detail to the FIA. Then the FIA ​​has to accept the change."

"The FIA ​​distributes the detailed documents we send them to all engine suppliers. So other engine suppliers are aware of the changes we've made and they need to approve the change before they happen."

"Why are we doing such a detailed investigation? Because a long time ago some teams were improving their performance by introducing stamina updates."

"Therefore, we are very careful not to increase our performance. As the season continues, it is not possible for us to improve our performance. This is my answer to these allegations."

Discussions in the engine area have seemed to have stalled for the past few weeks, but both teams consider each other to be gaining performance the "illegal" way. According to the Mercedes camp, Honda has made illegal practices related to energy use and the FIA ​​has therefore sent a technical directive to Honda.

From the Red Bull camp, it was claimed that Mercedes gained performance illegally by cooling the plenum.

Let's take a look at these claims in the paddock together.

Honda slowed down by new technical directive?
According to AMuS, the answer to this question may be "yes". According to AMuS reporters, it can be understood from the Mercedes camp that Honda has been slowed by a new technical directive, and Mercedes thinks that Honda has slowed down with the new directive.

Tanabe attributed the development of its engines from France to the Japanese manufacturer's better understanding of the engine and better management of energy use at the trackside.

Although Tanabe says they have improved in energy use and management, the FIA ​​allegedly; He's not very happy with the way Honda has used and managed the ERS in his vehicles for the past 4 months.

Therefore, it is thought that a technical directive was sent to Honda on this issue and corrections were made to the engine. However, no penalty was given to the Japanese team. Just like with the fuel flow limit thing in Ferrari's 2019 engine, the corrections made to the engines are tried to be kept secret.

Is Mercedes starting to gain performance in an "illegal" way by cooling the air intake chamber?

Again, according to AMuS, the Red Bull camp thinks that Mercedes is illegally gaining performance by cooling the air intake chamber.

The British driver was able to accelerate so well on the short straight up to Copse Bend, which is claimed to be why the 7-time world champion was able to attack Max Verstappen on that short straight in the first lap.

Cooling the air intake chamber means more power. During qualifying or at the start of the race, you can cool the air intake chamber the old-fashioned way, like dry ice. Of course, the effect of this lasts very little and probably after the first lap the air intake chamber will return to its former temperature.

However, systematic cooling of the air intake chamber is prohibited under current rules, and other teams think Mercedes has found a gray area in this area or is not following the rules. According to rumors, Ferrari is among the teams considering this.

One of the Red Bull camps told AMuS that it is illegal to cool the air intake chamber, and that "in particular, putting more fuel in the air intake chamber and delivering cold air in a shorter time" is prohibited.

Hamilton, on the other hand, denied the claims that they gained performance by using cooling methods.

The fight for the world championship is getting hotter and this time it seems that the engines will be on the agenda of the teams. These two claims may come to the fore in the coming weeks, especially as the upcoming race is on the Spa track, where engine power plays an important role.
google.transleted from = https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/fiani ... r/6641506/
Why do these articles always include statements like “Hamilton denied”. I should like to read what the engineers are saying about the solutions implemented on their car. Not the driver. The driver drives. The engineers engineer. They know what they made, how they made it and if it is within the rules. Making it about Hamilton is just politics. He is very good at those, but this shouldn’t be a political question but a technical one. The FIA engineers need to investigate the claim and see if there is any truth to it, it shouldn’t be a political minefield at all.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

tpe
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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No Engineer will say they did something illegal.
Having MY answering, is a trick from Mercor the press, to discredit any claim because MY is treated like a semi-God and whatever he says is the absolute truth.