Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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The compressor can be made as large as the mercedes where it currently is.. Maybe not a good idea but we have to just wait and see where they position it.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Merc's compressor is in front of the V and very huge. And the long turboshaft could still be a development challenge.

The amount of MGU-K deployment time, can be observed. When the ERS is depleted, the red tail light starts flashing. We seen that happening with Mclaren halfway some straights. Merc's rarely flash.

The ES is considered to be 25kg, presume we can save 10kg by reducing it to 2MJ. The gain would be 0,1s/lap. But you'd lose some deployment or the time to be able running an open wastegate, driving the compressor with mgu-h (as a motor)

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Abarth
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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NL_Fer wrote:[...]The ES is considered to be 25kg, presume we can save 10kg by reducing it to 2MJ. The gain would be 0,1s/lap. But you'd lose some deployment or the time to be able running an open wastegate, driving the compressor with mgu-h (as a motor)
You obviously overestimate the degrees of freedom the regulations give:
5.4.3 The total weight of the part of the ES that stores energy, i.e. the cells (including any clamping plates) and electrical connections between cells, must be no less than 20kg and must not exceed 25kg.
To those who do not know the regulations:
http://www.fia.com/regulations/regulati ... onship-110

Specifically:
http://www.fia.com/file/35175/download?token=HwcLzMFp

Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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NL_Fer wrote:Merc's compressor is in front of the V and very huge. And the long turboshaft could still be a development challenge.

The amount of MGU-K deployment time, can be observed. When the ERS is depleted, the red tail light starts flashing. We seen that happening with Mclaren halfway some straights. Merc's rarely flash.

The ES is considered to be 25kg, presume we can save 10kg by reducing it to 2MJ. The gain would be 0,1s/lap. But you'd lose some deployment or the time to be able running an open wastegate, driving the compressor with mgu-h (as a motor)
The flashing light is meant to indicate the car is doing mgu-k harvesting, so why would anyone decide to do mgu-k harvesting along a main straight?

ian_s
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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it doesn't mean its harvesting, it means it isn't deploying. if your ES is empty you cant deploy anything.

R_Redding
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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ian_s wrote:it doesn't mean its harvesting, it means it isn't deploying. if your ES is empty you cant deploy anything.
This is a quote from Charlie Whiting
http://www.fia.com/news/f1-race-directo ... l-briefing

"‘Lift and coast’

If the torque management system on the car decides to go into a fuel-save mode, the rear light will flash for a second to warn any driver behind. The thresholds are configurable but currently set for a car above 95 per cent throttle for more than a second, travelling faster than 180kph, that experiences a torque reduction of 120kW or more.

The warning system has been created because these events are controlled by the electronics rather than by the driver. If the driver decides to back off early then the situation is as it always has been. He has a responsibility to ensure another car is not close behind him. It’s as simple as that. One would normally expect the driver to check that it’s OK to back off. The warning light is there for situations not controlled by the driver."

Rob

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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I remembered the 20-25kg figure for the ES, just didn't realize it was dictated by the Fia. So no point in making a smaller ES.

The flashing light is set at a 120kw power reduction, so in most of the time it starts flashing when mgu-k stops deploying ES power.

But just look up the gp2 moment of Alonso. He gets away quick after the last chicane, altough halfway the straight the other drivers catch him when the ERS is finished. Thats when het starts crying about the gp2 engine.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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NL_Fer wrote:Merc's compressor is in front of the V and very huge. And the long turboshaft could still be a development challenge.

The amount of MGU-K deployment time, can be observed. When the ERS is depleted, the red tail light starts flashing. We seen that happening with Mclaren halfway some straights. Merc's rarely flash.

The ES is considered to be 25kg, presume we can save 10kg by reducing it to 2MJ. The gain would be 0,1s/lap. But you'd lose some deployment or the time to be able running an open wastegate, driving the compressor with mgu-h (as a motor)
The merc conpressor can still fit between the v of the honda engine because the honda turbo sits very high. The only drawback would be the Variable trumpets would have to be moved to make space. Was discussed before.
If honda does this they do not have to use as long a shaft as mercedes still. i dont think the long shaft is a stiff challenge for a good mechanical engineering team no pun intended.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Maybe not the shaft itself but the gearing to the mgu-h may be a challenge.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:Maybe not the shaft itself but the gearing to the mgu-h may be a challenge.
Yes. Indeed. That is exactly why there is no gearing to the MGUH as far I am aware of. The MGUH is simply on the same shaft.

Things can get nasty if your gears fail at those speeds. No advantage in gearing it either actually is a power loss. So I think it is avoided for obvious reasons. (gear life, gear size, wear etc).
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

Facts Only
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
NL_Fer wrote:Merc's compressor is in front of the V and very huge. And the long turboshaft could still be a development challenge.

The amount of MGU-K deployment time, can be observed. When the ERS is depleted, the red tail light starts flashing. We seen that happening with Mclaren halfway some straights. Merc's rarely flash.

The ES is considered to be 25kg, presume we can save 10kg by reducing it to 2MJ. The gain would be 0,1s/lap. But you'd lose some deployment or the time to be able running an open wastegate, driving the compressor with mgu-h (as a motor)
The merc conpressor can still fit between the v of the honda engine because the honda turbo sits very high. The only drawback would be the Variable trumpets would have to be moved to make space. Was discussed before.
If honda does this they do not have to use as long a shaft as mercedes still. i dont think the long shaft is a stiff challenge for a good mechanical engineering team no pun intended.
That compressor won't fit in any V, it's genuinely way to big. It would be sat more or less on top of the engine.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Facts Only wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:
NL_Fer wrote:Merc's compressor is in front of the V and very huge. And the long turboshaft could still be a development challenge.

The amount of MGU-K deployment time, can be observed. When the ERS is depleted, the red tail light starts flashing. We seen that happening with Mclaren halfway some straights. Merc's rarely flash.

The ES is considered to be 25kg, presume we can save 10kg by reducing it to 2MJ. The gain would be 0,1s/lap. But you'd lose some deployment or the time to be able running an open wastegate, driving the compressor with mgu-h (as a motor)
The merc conpressor can still fit between the v of the honda engine because the honda turbo sits very high. The only drawback would be the Variable trumpets would have to be moved to make space. Was discussed before.
If honda does this they do not have to use as long a shaft as mercedes still. i dont think the long shaft is a stiff challenge for a good mechanical engineering team no pun intended.
That compressor won't fit in any V, it's genuinely way to big. It would be sat more or less on top of the engine.
Pretty much it will be vertically challenged but it will still be partially between. I had done some comparisons using photos... there is space just a few centimeters the turbo has to be moved up by. Move the turbo up by 1cm and you can fit a compressor that is 2cm wider... If you get my drift.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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I mentioned it before but perhaps they can create a recess on the block casting itself, a groove in which a larger compressor can sit. It could use the block's water and oil passages to help cool the compressor.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Slightly bigger than current compressor, would be logical. Lowering target turbo rpm. Then increase turbine and mgu-h as a lower rpm requires it.

What if that configuration will generate Mercedes ICE powerleves, keep low weight and size zero, but still down on deployment on some tracks.

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Blackout
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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What are they gaining from the V-intgrated compressor? nothing, aside from the shorter shaft and slightly more compacity there is only drawbacks.
The Merc Layout doesn't make the PU footprint much bigger and doesn't have those drawbacks, it only has advantages, except the slightly longer shaft...
And Mclaren has already produced a monocoque (and a gearbox) suited to the Merc style layout not later than last year. A coque with a rear bulckhead that has a recess for the ICE oil tank and a big compressor and a Gbox with a bellhousing designed for a lower turbine and exhausts... so Mclaren has the experience and the ability to produce that kind of chassis in no time.