Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Thunder
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Honda seems confident for next Year. Apparently the Compressor will become Merc size. https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/stat ... 6171862016
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Joseki
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Arai also said they won't change layout cause it will hurt McL aero design. I'm really curious to see how they'll do it.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:I mentioned it before but perhaps they can create a recess on the block casting itself, a groove in which a larger compressor can sit. It could use the block's water and oil passages to help cool the compressor.
You could probably make the heads contain the housing itself as their walls if you really wanted to, tolerances would be a struggle but hell, this is F1.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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PhillipM wrote:
godlameroso wrote:I mentioned it before but perhaps they can create a recess on the block casting itself, a groove in which a larger compressor can sit. It could use the block's water and oil passages to help cool the compressor.
You could probably make the heads contain the housing itself as their walls if you really wanted to, tolerances would be a struggle but hell, this is F1.
Well if half the compressor housing was cast into the heads, you would need a very special seal for the top half, I do recall Honda saying they had problems with seals early on in the season.
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NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Facts Only wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote: That compressor won't fit in any V, it's genuinely way to big. It would be sat more or less on top of the engine.

Pretty much it will be vertically challenged but it will still be partially between. I had done some comparisons using photos... there is space just a few centimeters the turbo has to be moved up by. Move the turbo up by 1cm and you can fit a compressor that is 2cm wider... If you get my drift.
Maybe you are right afterall, if Arai admits it in the interview. But will it be the same shape, or does Honda use a "longer" compressor than Mercedes' flat disc shaped one?

I mean, he could be meaning same turbo performance as Mercedes, not physical size?

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FW17
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Image


Reminds me of

Image

SKI2
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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"Pretty much it will be vertically challenged but it will still be partially between. I had done some comparisons using photos... there is space just a few centimeters the turbo has to be moved up by. Move the turbo up by 1cm and you can fit a compressor that is 2cm wider... If you get my drift."

Would it be possible to have the connecting shaft between the turbo and compressor at an angle relative to the crankshaft plane ? In other words, simply raise the compressor end of the shaft connecting turbo and compressor higher off the block (and somewhat deeper within the headrest intake assembly) and leave the turbo - relatively - in its current position. This would place the entire assembly, compressor / connecting shaft / MGU-H/ and turbo at a small angle relative to the vertical center line of the block. Do the regulations prohibit such a configuration ?

Wild asides: are there engineering reasons a PU manufacturer couldn't place the Compressor / Turbo / Shaft assembly in a completely vertical orientation. Envision something like a 917 flat fan, where the compressor would be located horizontal to the track surface and the compressor beneath it. (Not in the center of the engine!)

Or in a horizontal, lateral layout 90* to the crank ?

SKI2
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Well, 5.1.6 of the regs say the compressor and turbo must be connected by... "a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line".

I suppose the intent of the reg is that it be parallel at all angles / degrees. Or could one argue an angled assembly is parallel (within the regs) when viewed from above or below but not from the side ??

Kind of like flexi-wings ! It depends when and where its measured.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
PhillipM wrote:
godlameroso wrote:I mentioned it before but perhaps they can create a recess on the block casting itself, a groove in which a larger compressor can sit. It could use the block's water and oil passages to help cool the compressor.
You could probably make the heads contain the housing itself as their walls if you really wanted to, tolerances would be a struggle but hell, this is F1.
Well if half the compressor housing was cast into the heads, you would need a very special seal for the top half, I do recall Honda saying they had problems with seals early on in the season.
Split seals are there to use if they need. Boost pressure should be childs play.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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SKI2 wrote:"Pretty much it will be vertically challenged but it will still be partially between. I had done some comparisons using photos... there is space just a few centimeters the turbo has to be moved up by. Move the turbo up by 1cm and you can fit a compressor that is 2cm wider... If you get my drift."

Would it be possible to have the connecting shaft between the turbo and compressor at an angle relative to the crankshaft plane ? In other words, simply raise the compressor end of the shaft connecting turbo and compressor higher off the block (and somewhat deeper within the headrest intake assembly) and leave the turbo - relatively - in its current position. This would place the entire assembly, compressor / connecting shaft / MGU-H/ and turbo at a small angle relative to the vertical center line of the block. Do the regulations prohibit such a configuration ?

Wild asides: are there engineering reasons a PU manufacturer couldn't place the Compressor / Turbo / Shaft assembly in a completely vertical orientation. Envision something like a 917 flat fan, where the compressor would be located horizontal to the track surface and the compressor beneath it. (Not in the center of the engine!)

Or in a horizontal, lateral layout 90* to the crank ?
Well. The regulations dictate the orientation of the shaft. Parallel to the crank.

To have a vertical shaft orientation is more tricky to lubricate all the bearings after the oil has drained away. Usually there is an oil bath for the bearings. In the rest position you want this wetting all the bearing even if it is partially. For a horizontal shaft the whatever is oil is left in the cartidge can touch the whole length of the shaft and bearings even when the turbo is not spining and some will remain there. In a vertical position it will be difficult to wet the bearings at the top of the shaft with the oil that remains after the engine is turned off. Unless you had some special feed or mechanism to keep the oil up there or start the turbine a short while after oil pressure has built up. At least this is how i know it...
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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5.1.6 states that the compressor and turbine have to spin in the same axis at the same angular velocity. And the turbine shaft has to be within 25mm of the car center line, so the tubine shaft can be no more than 25mm above the car center line.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

SKI2
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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This is improbable conjecture at best. Still, I learn from trying to work through and around the regs....

So, for a horizontal and angled solution, we are to assume the regs insist upon the entire length of the T/C connecting shaft to be always and entirely parallel to the crankshaft plane? And we could not create an assembly where the connecting shaft would be parallel to the crank in a plan view, but non parallel in elevation (side) view, yet still with the rear portion of the shaft assembly within 25 mm of the vehicle centerline.

The bearings could be part of a pressurized dry sump system? Assuming a vertical shaft intersected the centerline, that is.

Solutions get far too similar with these sorts of regulations, don't they. Thanks for the replies.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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So you're suggesting a turbo shaft that slants 50 mm? While being parallel when viewed from the top of the car?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

multisync
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Image
Honda's day of the dead

mrluke
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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SKI2 wrote:This is improbable conjecture at best. Still, I learn from trying to work through and around the regs....

So, for a horizontal and angled solution, we are to assume the regs insist upon the entire length of the T/C connecting shaft to be always and entirely parallel to the crankshaft plane? And we could not create an assembly where the connecting shaft would be parallel to the crank in a plan view, but non parallel in elevation (side) view, yet still with the rear portion of the shaft assembly within 25 mm of the vehicle centerline.

The bearings could be part of a pressurized dry sump system? Assuming a vertical shaft intersected the centerline, that is.

Solutions get far too similar with these sorts of regulations, don't they. Thanks for the replies.
The problem with this interpretation is that the rules do not state "parallel when viewed from...." as it does in other parts of the regulations, it just states parallel.