Engine technology free-for-all

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
J.A.W.
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Re: A shameless image thread for the enginephiles

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Check out this image of a BMW coordinated engine management system from ~70 years ago.
Image
Last edited by Steven on Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed reply to deleted post
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flyboy2160
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Engine technology free-for-all

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I couldn't find another thread to capture the engine technologies you guys want to discuss, so I've started one that lumps them all together. If you want to start separate threads for Wankels, 2 strokes, etc. go ahead. The OT posts from the engine image thread will be moved here.

J.A.W.
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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Yeah sure, why not shuffle the more intellectual minded away from the instant image/no comment thread..

Anyhow..
..from the fish or fowl dept.. a recently posted even numbered cylinder format 2-stroke engine had me wondering..
..4-stroke radials run odd numbered cylinder per bank layouts, so is the Junkers Jumo 222 a "radial" or not?

http://www.enginehistory.org/German/Jumo222.shtml

6X4=24, but is it more like a semi mirror-image of a broad-arrow Napier Lion inline, than a true radial?
"I believe in the Workers Revolution & I believe in the Final Solution,
I believe in the Shape of Things to Come, & I believe I'm not the only one..."
: Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks).

wuzak
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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J.A.W. wrote:Yeah sure, why not shuffle the more intellectual minded away from the instant image/no comment thread..

Anyhow..
..from the fish or fowl dept.. a recently posted even numbered cylinder format 2-stroke engine had me wondering..
..4-stroke radials run odd numbered cylinder per bank layouts, so is the Junkers Jumo 222 a "radial" or not?

http://www.enginehistory.org/German/Jumo222.shtml

6X4=24, but is it more like a semi mirror-image of a broad-arrow Napier Lion inline, than a true radial?
It is a real radial.

I imagine that the crankshaft would be arranged like an in-line 4, and the set of 4 would fire in the same order as an in-line 4. Each cylinder would fire in sequence, so that every other revolution the row would not fire, but one of the others would.

J.A.W.
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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You 'imagine' a crankshaft layout? Really?
So, no actual data on it then?
Was it a real anything.. ..the report writers are a bit coy, seemingly wanting a quid each way..
As well, the posted report is rather lacking in specific details,
& the Ju 222 had turned out a dud - like most other 24cyl aero-lumps..
"I believe in the Workers Revolution & I believe in the Final Solution,
I believe in the Shape of Things to Come, & I believe I'm not the only one..."
: Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks).

wuzak
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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I haven't seen a description of the crankshaft or its firing order.

There is this:
http://www.enginehistory.org/German/Jumo222.shtml

J.A.W.
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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wuzak wrote:I haven't seen a description of the crankshaft or its firing order.

There is this:
http://www.enginehistory.org/German/Jumo222.shtml
Yeah, I've seen that before ( hint: a couple of posts above - in this very thread) - but is oddly vague/evasive/secretive..
..on the crankshaft detail..
"I believe in the Workers Revolution & I believe in the Final Solution,
I believe in the Shape of Things to Come, & I believe I'm not the only one..."
: Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks).

wuzak
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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J.A.W. wrote:
wuzak wrote:I haven't seen a description of the crankshaft or its firing order.

There is this:
http://www.enginehistory.org/German/Jumo222.shtml
Yeah, I've seen that before ( hint: a couple of posts above - in this very thread) - but is oddly vague/evasive/secretive..
..on the crankshaft detail..
It's an intelligence report during the war. I don't think they had access.

J.A.W.
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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Yeah well, in the initial report they only do a somewhat cursory examination but reckon they want to run it later..
& in the 2nd they have it on hand to suss out, but again avoid mention of crankshaft function except that they didn't
even rotate the recip' assembly.. ..odd..
"I believe in the Workers Revolution & I believe in the Final Solution,
I believe in the Shape of Things to Come, & I believe I'm not the only one..."
: Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks).

J.A.W.
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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This post-war overview of German piston aero-engines..
.. written for Flight by Roy Fedden includes a brief Ju 222 appraisal..

"...showed promise - although there were various connecting rod troubles..."

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 02394.html
"I believe in the Workers Revolution & I believe in the Final Solution,
I believe in the Shape of Things to Come, & I believe I'm not the only one..."
: Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks).

wuzak
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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That National Archives of the UK have some files from 1946 relating to the Jumo 222.

Interestingly they call it a "radialine".

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C4024847
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C2429972
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C4019598

J.A.W.
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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&/Or verbatim - "Radioline" ( likely a typo).
"I believe in the Workers Revolution & I believe in the Final Solution,
I believe in the Shape of Things to Come, & I believe I'm not the only one..."
: Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks).

gruntguru
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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Wuzak - I agree the crank was most likely a 180 degree 4cyl arrangement (for balance reasons). Certainly there were only 4 crankpins with a master/slave con rod on each. This arrangement would dictate 12 paired cylinder firings per cycle. The arrangement raises a lot of issues. For example, did they have provision for different ignition timing on each (4 cyl) bank since slave/master rodded cylinders have different piston phasing and velocity profiles?
je suis charlie

wuzak
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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I don't know what was done for ignition timing. The issue must have been the same on radials, or the Vulture. Even the 1931 version of the Rolls-Royce R had a slave and master rod arrangement.

I think it likely that they didn't provide for different ignition timing between banks.

J.A.W.
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Re: Engine technology free-for-all

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A. Rowledge designed both the Napier Lion & R-R type-R, with master/slave big end/recip' arrangements
& Lions were used to power German aircraft.. ..again the Ju 222 does look like a mirror image Lion..

The Germans ran different ign' timings between plug sets ( & even comp' ratios per bank) on their V12s..
"I believe in the Workers Revolution & I believe in the Final Solution,
I believe in the Shape of Things to Come, & I believe I'm not the only one..."
: Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks).