Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[henry]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201805 ... ec5010.jpg

Yes. . In my previous post i got the numbers mixed up but that is beside the point.

Take a look here at my explanation of "Extra deploy":

After being fleshed out in the honda thread we know "extra harvest" uses the mguk> mguh> battery energy path which bypasses the 2MJ charging limits. This mechanism is explained elsewhere in this forum so lets move on to the next point.

In the background, the rules originally intended only 4MJ to go from ERS>MGUK. The rules also intended for energy to go from TURBINE/MGUH> MGUK unlimited. Good so far?

Now... What Ferrari are doing is using the same "extra harvest" pathway in reverse simultaneously with the turbine. And going ERS/turbine > MGUH > MGUK. UNLIMITED. Which bypasses the 4MJ easily if that now higher battery demand is supported with extra harvest. This is called "extra deploy"

Note that "extra deploy" needs "extra harvest" in order to be sustainable in the race or else you end up with an empty battery.

remember the battery charge limits on the MGUK to ERS pathway do not apply here. This is a different pathway that is allowed to be unlimited so u can easily empty the battery here.

At full power the pathway turbine>MGU-H>MGU-K provides about 60 kw, so in that mode the ES>MGU-K consumes 60 kw. 4 MJ of ES>MGU-K would last 66 seconds in that case. So to go above 4 MJ you would need a circuit on which “max” power is deployed longer than that. Considerably longer because, in your scenario, you need some time in “extra harvest” mode to provide the charge.

I think it more likely that if they do have more than 4 MJ to spend in the race they’d spend it driving the MGU-H from the ES at the beginning of straights. I’m pretty sure this is what they do in qualifying.

Your numbers may differ.

[Craigy]

Ferrari are essentially doing a "Reverse Extra-Harvest."

Instead of only bypassing the 4MJ charging limit allowed from MGUK, via the MGUH, like every manufacturer does, Ferrari are also going from battery to MGUH to MGUK using this method in reverse.

You heard it here first!

I think you need to re-read my post on this, in the Honda PU thread you participated in, from Jan 1st, because you read it there first. ->> viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18874&start=12540#p733495 <<-

I said there in that post that the whole system is reversible. I'm not sure many people on here (exceptions: Mr Potatohead, GruntGuru, some other folk) really understood what I was trying to convey.

[wuzak]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201805 ... c5010./jpg

remember the battery charge limits on the MGUK to ERS pathway do not apply here. This is a different pathway that is allowed to be unlimited so u can easily empty the battery here.

You post is ok and very plausible. Heck i sad that is what all manufacturers do in Q modes or in starting modes.

But i cannot agree with last statemend. Battery store is limmited to max dif 4MJ SOC. So pathway in unlimmited but not total energy at your disposal.

That means you cannot store more than 4MJ at any one time.

However, that does not preclude more energy being used through the ES, as energy is constantly being taken or given to the ES.

A crude example would be the ES starts the lap charged. Over the next 33s it discharges 4MJ. Then the next 33s it charges 4MJ and then discharges 4MJ again. 8MJ has been discharged, but maximum SoC was still 4MJ.

[godlameroso]

Battery storage isn't limited, it's deployment to the MGU-K from the battery that's limited. Every other energy path to the MGU-K is unlimited in energy but limited in power. In other words you can put a drag on the ICE and generate electrical energy for as long as you have fuel, but only 2 MJ can go from the MGU-K to the battery per lap, the rest can go to the battery but it cannot take the MGU-K to battery route. It has to go through the MGU-H.

It is not efficient to send battery power from ES to MGU-H to MGU-K but would give you essentially unlimited deployment for as long as you have electrical energy stored in the battery. So it behooves you to go to 25kg and pack as many cells as possible. Not that it's possible but if teams could store 10MJ of energy in the battery they would.

[wuzak]

Not that it's possible but if teams could store 10MJ of energy in the battery they would.

No. Battery storage is limited to 4MJ, defined as the difference between the maximum state-of-charge and minimum state-of-charge during a lap.

There is no limit, however, to how much energy you put to the ES or take from it over a lap, except for the case of the direct path to and from the MGUK. However, the MGUH can send and take any amount of energy to and from the ES.

[AJI]

Not that it's possible but if teams could store 10MJ of energy in the battery they would.

No. Battery storage is limited to 4MJ, defined as the difference between the maximum state-of-charge and minimum state-of-charge during a lap.

There is no limit, however, to how much energy you put to the ES or take from it over a lap, except for the case of the direct path to and from the MGUK. However, the MGUH can send and take any amount of energy to and from the ES.

I read that rule the same way as godlameroso. 4MJ is not max capacity it's the difference in State of Charge.
IMO they could easily store 10MJ with that weight limit and they probably do, they just can't use it in one lap. In fact, they would need that much excess storage to not over-stress the batteries. Sucking 4MJ out and pumping it back in in 90 seconds is a HUGE ask.

[henry]

Not that it's possible but if teams could store 10MJ of energy in the battery they would.

No. Battery storage is limited to 4MJ, defined as the difference between the maximum state-of-charge and minimum state-of-charge during a lap.

There is no limit, however, to how much energy you put to the ES or take from it over a lap, except for the case of the direct path to and from the MGUK. However, the MGUH can send and take any amount of energy to and from the ES.

I read that rule the same way as godlameroso. 4MJ is not max capacity it's the difference in State of Charge.
IMO they could easily store 10MJ with that weight limit and they probably do, they just can't use it in one lap. In fact, they would need that much excess storage to not over-stress the batteries. Sucking 4MJ out and pumping it back in in 90 seconds is a HUGE ask.

The wording on the SOC restriction is “any time the car is on track” and not per lap. So they might cycle between 5 and 1 but I doubt they cycle between 10 and 6.

That’s my reading of things anyway.

[hurril]

So in essence: if you are able to accumulate 10MJ of energy, then you could drive the MGU-k via the direct path for a whole 4MJ. After that by routing it through the MGU-h using the suggested "extra harvest" in reverse?

[AJI]

The wording on the SOC restriction is “any time the car is on track” and not per lap. So they might cycle between 5 and 1 but I doubt they cycle between 10 and 6.

That’s my reading of things anyway.

The 'any time the car is on track' is the confusing part. The implication is that once the car is on track the SoC can't vary by more than 4MJ, ever, but they always refer to being able to use the K 120kW for 33.333 seconds per lap at maximum output, so, 4MJ per lap...
I know this is a very simplistic way to look at it and they are doing all sorts of tricky things to circumvent this, but I believe it was the spirit of the rule.

The reality is we don't know the capacity of the battery as it is only limited by weight, but 10MJ is totally realistic for the weight, particularly for F1 tech levels.
They may cycle between the numbers you suggest and certainly there are comments of de-rates from the drivers, so they clearly hit the minimum threshold occasionally, but is it the SoC threshold or is the battery simply out of juice?

[henry]

The wording on the SOC restriction is “any time the car is on track” and not per lap. So they might cycle between 5 and 1 but I doubt they cycle between 10 and 6.

That’s my reading of things anyway.

The 'any time the car is on track' is the confusing part. The implication is that once the car is on track the SoC can't vary by more than 4MJ, ever, but they always refer to being able to use the K 120kW for 33.333 seconds per lap at maximum output, so, 4MJ per lap...
I know this is a very simplistic way to look at it and they are doing all sorts of tricky things to circumvent this, but I believe it was the spirit of the rule.

The reality is we don't know the capacity of the battery as it is only limited by weight, but 10MJ is totally realistic for the weight, particularly for F1 tech levels.
They may cycle between the numbers you suggest and certainly there are comments of de-rates from the drivers, so they clearly hit the minimum threshold occasionally, but is it the SoC threshold or is the battery simply out of juice?

I was wrong to suggest the 5 to 1 figures. I don’t know enough about batteries to say that. I’ve seen references to the bad effects of repeatedly discharging to zero but I have no quantitative idea how battery efficiency and life are affected by overall charge levels.

I think you are right about the state of knowledge of the battery capacity. I think that is true of pretty much all quantative knowledge of the ERS components other than those specified in the regs.

On looking again at the power flow diagram I find myself confused about how the FIA know what flow paths are being used. That’s not Ferrari specific so to avoid drifting any further off topic I’ll raise this in the power unit thread viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9259#p212581

[PlatinumZealot]

Even with the 4MJ limit in the state of charge.

According to Brembo the total braking energy in the Baku race is 181 kWhr or 12.77 MJ per lap average.
Give 40% to the rear brakes split 30% to the MGUK. That means about 3.8 MJ can be recovered in MGUK per lap.

For extra Harvest i am not sure. But we assumed 30kW? From both derate and heat? About 45% of the lap is not full throttle. So about 1.3 MJ. So you are taking about 5.3 MJ can be reocvered over the lap if these numbers are not total rubbish. Excess probably used to build boost.

In qualifying you could deploy 3MJ in sector one in MGUK and boost turbo boost. You could recover 1.3 MJ of that thru brakes. And 0.4 thru extra harvest. So you now have. 3.7 MJ in sector 2.
And for sector 3 you have 2.1MJ to spend. That is full usage of energy.

Now imagine how you can use those 120kW anywhere you want?

[wuzak]

According to Brembo the total braking energy in the Baku race is 181 kWhr or 12.77 MJ per lap average.
Give 40% to the rear brakes split 30% to the MGUK. That means about 3.8 MJ can be recovered in MGUK per lap.

I don't think you can work it out that way.

The big restriction for braking recovery is the 120kW harvest limit.

So, if there is 10s of braking where the braking power is greater than 120kW at the rear, the total amount of energy recovered is 1.2MJ.

Does the Brembo data provide the time spent braking?

[PlatinumZealot]

Here is where i got the Brembo Data. I used Baku since it was the last race before the rumours started.

http://www.brembo.com/en/company/news/f ... mbo-brakes

[wuzak]

Here is where i got the Brembo Data. I used Baku since it was the last race before the rumours started.

http://www.brembo.com/en/company/news/f ... mbo-brakes

That says a total braking time of just under 17s.

Assuming all of that would allow the 120kW recovery from the MGUK, the total recovered would be 2.04MJ.

The three main braking zones are:
T1: 1.79s @ 4.8g
T3: 2.03s @ 4.8g
T15: 1.89s @ 4.6g

That's a total of 5.71s, allowing for 685J of MGUK recovery.

[henry]

@wuzak, here’s a site with Baku 2017. https://www.formula1.it/news/5175/1/gp- ... l-circuito

It says 19% of the lap spent braking. Around 20 seconds, which is above the average.

Magneti Marelli used to publish energy recovery data in a similar form, perhaps sanitised Ferrari data. From that it was possible to deduce a braking energy recovery efficiency, around 50%. That makes Baku recovery 1.2 MJ.

Brembo used to publish the circuit identity sheets to journalists. http://www.brembo.com/en/company/press/ ... -formula-1 they were originally more detailed.

Didn’t you post some info on recovery efficiency in the early days of the fotmula?

Oh and @sonic boom and @Tommy Cookers had a conversation about available brake energy in this thread here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21958&p=762082&hilit=1000#p762082

Edit: I didn’t see the subsequent posts. But I think the links are still useful.