Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Big Mangalhit
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Big Mangalhit » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:32 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:27 am
"Understanding ERS duty cycle" This understanding must be done in accordance with what the rules allows and not with what ones interpretations of what the rules allows.
Spielberg is a track were harvesting by the MGU-K is more difficult to do than to deploy.

Andy Cowell "In Spielberg, the drivers need to harvest at every opportunity, but they're deploying it just as regularly, with 33.33 seconds of boost to be used in 68 seconds lap, they can take advantage of that extra power for almost 50% of the lap, if they get it right".

What holds them back with more straights then braking points to let their MGU-H UNLIMITTED FLOW TO MGU-K being used to deploy through the "K" A CONSTANT I60 BHP to the crankshaft for longer than the 33.33 seconds per lap the rules mandate?.
The thing is that you can overcome that rule by harvesting from the turbine and send it directly to the K as it has been confirmed to be the case.

If anything Andy Cowell just wants to keep it a secret that they are doing cause maybe that quote is old (2014?) and he thought not everybody was exploring that too much maybe?

Anyway when and where is that quote? I put it on google but it has absolutely no results. Can you put the source here?

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:50 pm

"insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle" Andy Cowell 2017.
2017 Spielberg lap was 68 seconds, the lap has more straights were to deploy than braking points were to harvest, those that got it right managed to deploy 160 bhp for 33.33 seconds of the lap, that is approx 50% of the lap. this was 2017, last year and not 2014 the start of the ERS formula, and this was mercedes not Honda or Renault, what was holding tham back from deploying 160 bhp for more than 33.33 seconds of the lap by using the unlimitted flow from "H" TO "K"?, STRAIGHTS WERE NO PROBLEM.

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by henry » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:57 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:21 am
Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.
Thanks for pointing out this article. It’s dated 04 July 2017, so recent.

Here’s a link for anyone who wants to read it https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/merced ... uty-cycle/

It is not a very good description of what actually happens, so while it is true about the 4MJ in the ES and how long it would last if that was the only source of electrical energy, it is just plain wrong about the MGU-H.

This is what it says:
Over a single lap, the maximum amount of energy that may be deployed from the Energy Store to the rear wheels is 4MJ – which provides an additional 161 hp for approximately 33 seconds per lap.
It goes on to say:
In Spielberg, the drivers need to harvest at every opportunity. But they’re deploying it just as regularly. With 33.3 seconds of boost to be used in a 68 second lap, they can take advantage of that extra power for almost 50% of the lap – if they get it right.
This is entirely true if you only talk about the energy that goes through the energy store. It entirely ignores the route from the MGU-H direct to the MGU-K.

In a later post you attribute this statement to Andy Cowell. I doubt he wrote it. I think it more likely that it was written by a Mercedes copy writer. I think the misunderstandings in the article are most likely because that writer doesn’t fully understand the technology, or has the understanding but is trying to simplify things for an audience who doesn’t understand or maybe some combination.

I can understand that you regard this article as authorative because it comes from Mercedes. I would suggest you might pay more attention to some of the posters on this forum who do have a good understanding and write for an audience who they think understand.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by turbof1 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:19 pm

In all honesty, the system at its basics isn't difficult to understand. There are basic rules in there with little to no ways to circumvent those rules, and what is left is potential. There is max 120 KW power on the drive shaft. 33.33s of a full lap 120kw comes from mgu-k harvesting, all the other seconds can come from the mgu-h harvesting.
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by henry » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:28 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:19 pm
In all honesty, the system at its basics isn't difficult to understand. There are basic rules in there with little to no ways to circumvent those rules, and what is left is potential. There is max 120 KW power on the drive shaft. 33.33s of a full lap 120kw comes from mgu-k harvesting, all the other seconds can come from the mgu-h harvesting.
It’s so easy to confuse ourselves though.I have lost count of the number of times I have been confused by the asymmetry of the ES - K energy flows.

Only 16 seconds can come directly from the MGU-K harvesting (2 MJ).
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by turbof1 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:31 pm

henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:28 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:19 pm
In all honesty, the system at its basics isn't difficult to understand. There are basic rules in there with little to no ways to circumvent those rules, and what is left is potential. There is max 120 KW power on the drive shaft. 33.33s of a full lap 120kw comes from mgu-k harvesting, all the other seconds can come from the mgu-h harvesting.
It’s so easy to confuse ourselves though.I have lost count of the number of times I have been confused by the asymmetry of the ES - K energy flows.

Only 16 seconds can come directly from the MGU-K harvesting (2 MJ).
Ah yes, correct. It can pull 4MJ from the ES, but only store 2MJ on it.
#AeroFrodo

godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:28 pm

You can send unlimited energy to the MGU-H from the ES, which can send unlimited energy to the turbo, to the engine, to an engine ancillary and to the MGU-K. The engine can send unlimited energy to any ancillary or to the turbo, or to the MGU-K(at a max rate of 120kW), and the MGU-K can send unlimited energy to the MGU-H, any engine ancillary, or the crankshaft itself(at a max rate of 120kW).

However, the ES can only send 4MJ of energy at a rate of 120kW directly to the MGU-K per lap, and can only be charged with 2MJ of energy at a rate of 120kW from the K. This is the only energy restriction, this means that only and any energy delivered in a direct path from the ES to the K counts against this 4MJ pool. Any and all indirect paths to the MGU-K via any of the other energy paths is allowed. That means anything over 4MJ has to be done indirectly but it is by no means illegal.

Nowhere in the regulations does it state the maximum energy capacity of the batteries making up the energy store, only maximum weight, in other words ES capacity is largely dictated by the energy density of the cells, along with some secondary factors which influence this such as charge/discharge rates, cooling, and cycle life.


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roon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:54 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:28 pm
Nowhere in the regulations does it state the maximum energy capacity of the batteries making up the energy store...
That's true, but it's a moot point, since: "The difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on track."

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saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:01 pm

In 2017 in Spielberg the Mercedes drivers started the lap with a fully charged battery (ES) and used a boost of 160 bhp for 33.33 seconds of the lap, which was approx 50% of the lap. on the next lap and onwards if it wasn't for the unlimited flow of the "H" TO "K" AND "H" TO "ES" as permitted, that boost time of 33.33 seconds of the lap would and could not have been repeated.

please note that this here am talking about was last year (2017) as per Mercedes and as per the best power unit on the grid,

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:08 pm

roon wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:54 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:28 pm
Nowhere in the regulations does it state the maximum energy capacity of the batteries making up the energy store...
That's true, but it's a moot point, since: "The difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on track."

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7yK4CpUgyhM/V ... S%2B01.jpg
The RULES does not speak or mandate a battery "ES" capacity, they speak of size, weight, max allowed charge/discharg.
In my opinion the capacity size of battery "ES" as used in F1 is at least a minimum of 8mj capacity size.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:11 pm

henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:57 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:21 am
Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.
Thanks for pointing out this article. It’s dated 04 July 2017, so recent.

Here’s a link for anyone who wants to read it https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/merced ... uty-cycle/

It is not a very good description of what actually happens, so while it is true about the 4MJ in the ES and how long it would last if that was the only source of electrical energy, it is just plain wrong about the MGU-H.

This is what it says:
Over a single lap, the maximum amount of energy that may be deployed from the Energy Store to the rear wheels is 4MJ – which provides an additional 161 hp for approximately 33 seconds per lap.
It goes on to say:
In Spielberg, the drivers need to harvest at every opportunity. But they’re deploying it just as regularly. With 33.3 seconds of boost to be used in a 68 second lap, they can take advantage of that extra power for almost 50% of the lap – if they get it right.
This is entirely true if you only talk about the energy that goes through the energy store. It entirely ignores the route from the MGU-H direct to the MGU-K.

In a later post you attribute this statement to Andy Cowell. I doubt he wrote it. I think it more likely that it was written by a Mercedes copy writer. I think the misunderstandings in the article are most likely because that writer doesn’t fully understand the technology, or has the understanding but is trying to simplify things for an audience who doesn’t understand or maybe some combination.

I can understand that you regard this article as authorative because it comes from Mercedes. I would suggest you might pay more attention to some of the posters on this forum who do have a good understanding and write for an audience who they think understand.
Andy Cowel: "you end-up with graphs (cercuite specific) where there are ten different straights around the circuit and you haven't got an infinite amount of energy to deploy through the MGU-K, so you do need to work out on which straight you're going to deploy the MGU-K for two seconds and on which straight you're going to deploy for one second".

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by henry » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:33 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:01 pm
In 2017 in Spielberg the Mercedes drivers started the lap with a fully charged battery (ES) and used a boost of 160 bhp for 33.33 seconds of the lap, which was approx 50% of the lap. on the next lap and onwards if it wasn't for the unlimited flow of the "H" TO "K" AND "H" TO "ES" as permitted, that boost time of 33.33 seconds of the lap would and could not have been repeated.

please note that this here am talking about was last year (2017) as per Mercedes and as per the best power unit on the grid,
So now your understanding is that the H to K adds to the energy flow. So when the ES doesn’t have enough charge to get to 33 seconds it can be made up with energy from the H.

All you need to do now is forget the 33 second number and just see that the flow to the K can come from both the ES and the H and that if the ES flow is 4 MJ any energy from the H will take us beyond 33 seconds.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by henry » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:34 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:11 pm

Andy Cowel: "you end-up with graphs (cercuite specific) where there are ten different straights around the circuit and you haven't got an infinite amount of energy to deploy through the MGU-K, so you do need to work out on which straight you're going to deploy the MGU-K for two seconds and on which straight you're going to deploy for one second".
I don’t see anything to argue with there. Except perhaps that the deployment durations look a little short.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by NL_Fer » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:59 pm

Such a pity after 4 years we still cannot see the ES state of charge during a lap on tv telemetry information. Instead we get a rpm bar that moves over the halo. :|

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by henry » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:36 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:08 pm
roon wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:54 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:28 pm
Nowhere in the regulations does it state the maximum energy capacity of the batteries making up the energy store...
That's true, but it's a moot point, since: "The difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on track."

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7yK4CpUgyhM/V ... S%2B01.jpg
The RULES does not speak or mandate a battery "ES" capacity, they speak of size, weight, max allowed charge/discharg.
In my opinion the capacity size of battery "ES" as used in F1 is at least a minimum of 8mj capacity size.
I entirely agree. At least it will be a long way above 4 MJ to avoid deep discharge which would be very damaging.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus