Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:27 am

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:20 pm
Andy Cowell has never said eg that their PUs are 50% efficient .....
but many believe that he has said this and therefore that 50% bte is an actuality
We have this claim from September 2017 https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13177 ... yno-target

"Mercedes' Formula 1 engine has hit a landmark achievement on the dyno at the team's Brixworth factory after breaking the 50% thermal efficiency barrier for the first time.

The 50% mark, which has not yet been reached on track, is much higher than a reported 29% efficiency peak that old normally-aspirated V8 engines produced.

Mercedes' first turbo-hybrid engine, which ran in 2014, had an efficiency rate of 44% and the 2017 unit allegedly produces 109bhp more using the same amount of fuel.

A column celebrating the achievement on Mercedes' official website said "the last time we saw these levels of power in Formula 1 was back in 2005, with a V10 that guzzled fuel at a whopping 194kg/hr" - almost double the fuel-flow rate."
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:03 am

Big Mangalhit wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:32 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:27 am
"Understanding ERS duty cycle" This understanding must be done in accordance with what the rules allows and not with what ones interpretations of what the rules allows.
Spielberg is a track were harvesting by the MGU-K is more difficult to do than to deploy.

Andy Cowell "In Spielberg, the drivers need to harvest at every opportunity, but they're deploying it just as regularly, with 33.33 seconds of boost to be used in 68 seconds lap, they can take advantage of that extra power for almost 50% of the lap, if they get it right".

What holds them back with more straights then braking points to let their MGU-H UNLIMITTED FLOW TO MGU-K being used to deploy through the "K" A CONSTANT I60 BHP to the crankshaft for longer than the 33.33 seconds per lap the rules mandate?.
The thing is that you can overcome that rule by harvesting from the turbine and send it directly to the K as it has been confirmed to be the case.

If anything Andy Cowell just wants to keep it a secret that they are doing cause maybe that quote is old (2014?) and he thought not everybody was exploring that too much maybe?

Anyway when and where is that quote? I put it on google but it has absolutely no results. Can you put the source here?
if it wasn't for the "H" HARVESTING and permitted unlimited flowing to both "ES" and "K" at Spielberg 2017 they wouldn't have been able to deploy for 33.33 seconds per lap as the rules allow, which amounted to approx 50% of the lap. after the fully charged "ES" was discharged for the first time, and neither would they had been able to fully re-charge it "ES" during the race. My point in all this was that at Spielberg there is enough straights for them to have the "K" deploy for longer than the 33.33 seconds (50% of the lap) they were deploying by means of the unlimited flow from the "H". why they did not?. the Mercedes Spielberg write-up talks of being able of deploying 160 bhp for 33.33 seconds per lap. deploying 80bhp foe 66 seconds per lap (deploying for the whole lap) would have been the same and within the rules.

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by LM10 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:59 am

Sepehr87 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:02 am
How hard would it be for other manufacturers to copy this?
Is this rumor indicating that Ferrari ICE has better fuel efficiency?
Should other manufacturers change ICE first to copy Ferrari idea?
I also ask this question to myself and has asked it here once, but I think that no one here can answer it, unfortunately. Simply because it's not 100% sure what or how Ferrari is doing what they're doing. Even the FIA needed much time and help from Ferrari to finally understand what was/is going on.

Another question is if the investigations made it clearer for other teams so that they know more about this trick now and can start trying to implement it themselves.
I don't know what the regulations say. If Ferrari needs to explain it in a document and which people have insight to which extent.

santos
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by santos » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:05 pm

LM10 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:59 am
Sepehr87 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:02 am
How hard would it be for other manufacturers to copy this?
Is this rumor indicating that Ferrari ICE has better fuel efficiency?
Should other manufacturers change ICE first to copy Ferrari idea?
I also ask this question to myself and has asked it here once, but I think that no one here can answer it, unfortunately. Simply because it's not 100% sure what or how Ferrari is doing what they're doing. Even the FIA needed much time and help from Ferrari to finally understand what was/is going on.

Another question is if the investigations made it clearer for other teams so that they know more about this trick now and can start trying to implement it themselves.
I don't know what the regulations say. If Ferrari needs to explain it in a document and which people have insight to which extent.
In 2016 after the token system was gone, how hard it was for Honda, Renault and Ferrari to copy what Mercedes did? Must be pretty hard.

Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:23 pm

LM10 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:59 am
Sepehr87 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:02 am
How hard would it be for other manufacturers to copy this?
Is this rumor indicating that Ferrari ICE has better fuel efficiency?
Should other manufacturers change ICE first to copy Ferrari idea?
I also ask this question to myself and has asked it here once, but I think that no one here can answer it, unfortunately. Simply because it's not 100% sure what or how Ferrari is doing what they're doing. Even the FIA needed much time and help from Ferrari to finally understand what was/is going on.

Another question is if the investigations made it clearer for other teams so that they know more about this trick now and can start trying to implement it themselves.
I don't know what the regulations say. If Ferrari needs to explain it in a document and which people have insight to which extent.
I question slightly how Nico knows of this? He has no ties to Ferrari and probably knows less than many scribes do about it. He must have picked up pit gossip the same as other teams must have. The teams though are probably ruling things out one by one until they nail it rather than just generalising. (I do like to hear stuff like this though, where ever its from)
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

turbof1
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by turbof1 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:27 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:23 pm
LM10 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:59 am
Sepehr87 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:02 am
How hard would it be for other manufacturers to copy this?
Is this rumor indicating that Ferrari ICE has better fuel efficiency?
Should other manufacturers change ICE first to copy Ferrari idea?
I also ask this question to myself and has asked it here once, but I think that no one here can answer it, unfortunately. Simply because it's not 100% sure what or how Ferrari is doing what they're doing. Even the FIA needed much time and help from Ferrari to finally understand what was/is going on.

Another question is if the investigations made it clearer for other teams so that they know more about this trick now and can start trying to implement it themselves.
I don't know what the regulations say. If Ferrari needs to explain it in a document and which people have insight to which extent.
I question slightly how Nico knows of this? He has no ties to Ferrari and probably knows less than many scribes do about it. He must have picked up pit gossip the same as other teams must have. The teams though are probably ruling things out one by one until they nail it rather than just generalising. (I do like to hear stuff like this though, where ever its from)
Nico Rosberg could only say which PU component was working better. He knows as much as we do regarding what Ferrari does specifically: nothing. He was only able to identify the area.
#AeroFrodo

atanatizante
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by atanatizante » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:52 pm

roon wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:32 pm
...

Put more simply:

Ferrari: ICE output + 160hp constant
Other teams: ICE output + 160hp or less, intermittently

...
Your right but I think they must be developed a little bit these statements, don`t you think?

Maybe we would rather say it could occur in one of these situations:

1: ICE output + 160hp constant both in Q3 and the race ... Ferrari

2: ICE output + 160hp constant in Q3 + intermittently Q3 mode and less than 160hp but constant in the race ... Merc

3: ICE output + 160hp constant but only in Q3 + less than 160hp but constant in the race ... Renault

4: ICE output + less than 160hp constant in Q3 and less than 160hp but constant in the race ... Honda

And there must another differentiator factor which is ICE power max output, which is in the following order from my point of view: Ferrari > Merc > Renault > Honda ... I repeat, from power output not from the efficient side where I think Merc still has the edge ...

This year it`s fuel and combustion a priority for that being the largest area of development. But emphasis must be at the fuel side and that is for at least 2 reasons: one is that they are allowed fewer times (3 or 4) in the year when they could get an upgrade. And the second but the most important one is the calorific power hence fuel formulation. Those tiny percents which the petroleum companies are free to invent are so important nowadays. There are so magnificent technologies involved, using nanoparticles for improving combustion and lowers the internal friction and ICE wear ...

In conclusion, my argument for Ferrari ICE is the most powerful out there is due to fuel (formulation) rather than combustion (aka efficiency for Merc case) as there are some sources indicating that now Shell fuel formula gives them the upper hand in that HP race ... and another reason is that having max 160HP constant during the race they could also help them indirectly in the efficiency or fuel economy for they are using ICE less time than needed ...
Last edited by atanatizante on Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
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LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by LM10 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:20 pm

santos wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:05 pm
LM10 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:59 am
Sepehr87 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:02 am
How hard would it be for other manufacturers to copy this?
Is this rumor indicating that Ferrari ICE has better fuel efficiency?
Should other manufacturers change ICE first to copy Ferrari idea?
I also ask this question to myself and has asked it here once, but I think that no one here can answer it, unfortunately. Simply because it's not 100% sure what or how Ferrari is doing what they're doing. Even the FIA needed much time and help from Ferrari to finally understand what was/is going on.

Another question is if the investigations made it clearer for other teams so that they know more about this trick now and can start trying to implement it themselves.
I don't know what the regulations say. If Ferrari needs to explain it in a document and which people have insight to which extent.
In 2016 after the token system was gone, how hard it was for Honda, Renault and Ferrari to copy what Mercedes did? Must be pretty hard.
What should they have copied from Mercedes?

TEHNOS
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by TEHNOS » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:26 pm

LM10 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:20 pm
santos wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:05 pm
LM10 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:59 am


I also ask this question to myself and has asked it here once, but I think that no one here can answer it, unfortunately. Simply because it's not 100% sure what or how Ferrari is doing what they're doing. Even the FIA needed much time and help from Ferrari to finally understand what was/is going on.

Another question is if the investigations made it clearer for other teams so that they know more about this trick now and can start trying to implement it themselves.
I don't know what the regulations say. If Ferrari needs to explain it in a document and which people have insight to which extent.
In 2016 after the token system was gone, how hard it was for Honda, Renault and Ferrari to copy what Mercedes did? Must be pretty hard.
What should they have copied from Mercedes?
Whatever they were doing for 3 to 4 years, probably "burning substantial amount of oil vapour-wise"

atanatizante
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by atanatizante » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:48 pm

roon wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:32 pm
...

There are no power limits for the MGUH. It could be 500hp for all we know. Correct me if I'm wrong. A greater-than-MGUK-output MGUH combined with sufficient ICE performance could keep the K sustained on its own, without resorting to Honda's ES>H>K type energy flow path.

...
That means producing 160HP constantly from MGU-H there is no reason to use ES anymore, isn`t it?
Only just that it`s needed to harvest the energy MGU-K is producing under braking. No to mention its use for spooling the turbo and engine ancillaries ...

Another question I would like to ask whether turbo spooling being linked via ICE through the crankshaft could aid in lowering mechanical ICE resistance (internal friction) hence lower the fuel consumption in the end?
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

mantikos
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by mantikos » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:51 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:23 pm
LM10 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:59 am
Sepehr87 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:02 am
How hard would it be for other manufacturers to copy this?
Is this rumor indicating that Ferrari ICE has better fuel efficiency?
Should other manufacturers change ICE first to copy Ferrari idea?
I also ask this question to myself and has asked it here once, but I think that no one here can answer it, unfortunately. Simply because it's not 100% sure what or how Ferrari is doing what they're doing. Even the FIA needed much time and help from Ferrari to finally understand what was/is going on.

Another question is if the investigations made it clearer for other teams so that they know more about this trick now and can start trying to implement it themselves.
I don't know what the regulations say. If Ferrari needs to explain it in a document and which people have insight to which extent.
I question slightly how Nico knows of this? He has no ties to Ferrari and probably knows less than many scribes do about it. He must have picked up pit gossip the same as other teams must have. The teams though are probably ruling things out one by one until they nail it rather than just generalising. (I do like to hear stuff like this though, where ever its from)
His former race engineer from Williams/Merc is at Ferrari now iirc

Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:05 pm

mantikos wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:51 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:23 pm
LM10 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:59 am


I also ask this question to myself and has asked it here once, but I think that no one here can answer it, unfortunately. Simply because it's not 100% sure what or how Ferrari is doing what they're doing. Even the FIA needed much time and help from Ferrari to finally understand what was/is going on.

Another question is if the investigations made it clearer for other teams so that they know more about this trick now and can start trying to implement it themselves.
I don't know what the regulations say. If Ferrari needs to explain it in a document and which people have insight to which extent.
I question slightly how Nico knows of this? He has no ties to Ferrari and probably knows less than many scribes do about it. He must have picked up pit gossip the same as other teams must have. The teams though are probably ruling things out one by one until they nail it rather than just generalising. (I do like to hear stuff like this though, where ever its from)
His former race engineer from Williams/Merc is at Ferrari now iirc
They usually seem to be a cagey bunch though and take professionalism seriously. I doubt he would give Nico any information that would be of use to Merc, and if he had,I doubt Nico would have repeated it.
Its probably just one of those things media like to call a scoop, which is usually a snippet with not substance, but usually 'correct' to the letter of the revelation without enabling anyone to copy it.

Unless he wants to come back to Merc :D

I prefer to hear stuff though even if there is no substance behind it.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

roon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:06 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:48 pm
roon wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:32 pm
...

There are no power limits for the MGUH. It could be 500hp for all we know. Correct me if I'm wrong. A greater-than-MGUK-output MGUH combined with sufficient ICE performance could keep the K sustained on its own, without resorting to Honda's ES>H>K type energy flow path.

...
That means producing 160HP constantly from MGU-H there is no reason to use ES anymore, isn`t it?
Only just that it`s needed to harvest the energy MGU-K is producing under braking. No to mention its use for spooling the turbo and engine ancillaries ...

Another question I would like to ask whether turbo spooling being linked via ICE through the crankshaft could aid in lowering mechanical ICE resistance (internal friction) hence lower the fuel consumption in the end?
Not quite. If full turbocompounding is used, they could still utilize the ES in a wastegates-open electric supercharger mode, with a non-H-driven MGUK, for 4MJ/lap, lasting up to 33 seconds (that oft repeated figure). Full piston power (no H reclamation) + 160 MGUK hp.

They will still attempt to harvest 2MJ/lap via the K under braking as permitted by the regs. The remaining 2MJ will still flow in via the H when it is advantageous to do so, reducing fuel efficiency or piston power momentarily. Topping up one usable half of the ES with 2MJ from the H is potentially faster than topping up the other usable half with the K, if the H makes more power than the K.

That could be the root of the Ferrari double battery rumour. One half optimized to recharge 120kW via the K, the other optimized to recharge at a higher rate via the H.

Mechanical turbocompounding would be more efficient at specific speeds. Mechanical variability comes at a cost to efficiency and weight--transmissions, clutches, etc. I do not know which type of system (electrical or mechanical) would be, net, more efficient.
Last edited by roon on Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

henry
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Location: England

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by henry » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:17 pm

roon wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:06 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:48 pm
roon wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:32 pm
...

There are no power limits for the MGUH. It could be 500hp for all we know. Correct me if I'm wrong. A greater-than-MGUK-output MGUH combined with sufficient ICE performance could keep the K sustained on its own, without resorting to Honda's ES>H>K type energy flow path.

...
That means producing 160HP constantly from MGU-H there is no reason to use ES anymore, isn`t it?
Only just that it`s needed to harvest the energy MGU-K is producing under braking. No to mention its use for spooling the turbo and engine ancillaries ...

Another question I would like to ask whether turbo spooling being linked via ICE through the crankshaft could aid in lowering mechanical ICE resistance (internal friction) hence lower the fuel consumption in the end?
Not quite. If full turbocompounding is used, they could still utilize the ES in a wastegates-open electric supercharger mode, with a non-H-driven MGUK, for 4MJ/lap, lasting up to 33 seconds (that oft repeated figure). Full piston power (no H reclamation) + 160 MGUK hp.

Mechanical turbocompounding would be more efficient at specific speeds. Mechanical variability comes at a cost to efficiency and weight--transmissions, clutches, etc. I do not know which type of system (electrical or mechanical) would be, net, more efficient.
I was going to make the same point.

Your numbers are a little off though. In supercharger mode the drain on the ES is 120kW plus whatever it takes to drive the compressor, maybe 40kW (even with the wastegates open the turbine makes a contribution) so the max time in that mode would be 25 seconds. They would need to switch the H from driving the K to charging the ES at some point on the straights so they had another 4MJ with which to rinse and repeat.

Edit: stupid me. Of course the right duration is 33 seconds. It’s hot here.
Last edited by henry on Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:35 pm

henry wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:17 pm
roon wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:06 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:48 pm


That means producing 160HP constantly from MGU-H there is no reason to use ES anymore, isn`t it?
Only just that it`s needed to harvest the energy MGU-K is producing under braking. No to mention its use for spooling the turbo and engine ancillaries ...

Another question I would like to ask whether turbo spooling being linked via ICE through the crankshaft could aid in lowering mechanical ICE resistance (internal friction) hence lower the fuel consumption in the end?
Not quite. If full turbocompounding is used, they could still utilize the ES in a wastegates-open electric supercharger mode, with a non-H-driven MGUK, for 4MJ/lap, lasting up to 33 seconds (that oft repeated figure). Full piston power (no H reclamation) + 160 MGUK hp.

Mechanical turbocompounding would be more efficient at specific speeds. Mechanical variability comes at a cost to efficiency and weight--transmissions, clutches, etc. I do not know which type of system (electrical or mechanical) would be, net, more efficient.
I was going to make the same point.

Your numbers are a little off though. In supercharger mode the drain on the ES is 120kW plus whatever it takes to drive the compressor, maybe 40kW (even with the wastegates open the turbine makes a contribution) so the max time in that mode would be 25 seconds. They would need to switch the H from driving the K to charging the ES at some point on the straights so they had another 4MJ with which to rinse and repeat.
How does the turbine makes a contribution with waste-gates open?. and another thing, in free load mode "electric supercharging with waste-gates open" the "H" is sharing "ES" power with "K".