Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
sosic2121
sosic2121
19
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:54 am
Supercharger mode could be entirely powered by the crank. If the MGU-K puts a 40-50kW drag on the crank to drive the turbo by sending that energy to the MGU-H then you don't use any ES energy to power the turbo. Wastegates can be fully open, just like the Ferrari does about 1 second after it's flat out. Very noticeable in Austria, Renault does this as well.
This can be done, but why?
The point of supercharger mode is to have maximum power out of PU.
K is already at maximum, so the only way is to get more from ICE by opening wastegates.
I think this is very inefficient so it would be used only during Q. If Ferrari could harvest a lot from H (let's say +80kw) in turbo-compound mode, then there would probably be enough energy to use e-charging on beginning of the straights.

User avatar
henry
306
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

dans79 wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:34 am
henry wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:33 pm
So in supercharger mode the ES is supplying 120KW to the MGU-K and a smaller amount, maybe 40KW, to the MGU-H. If supercharger mode is used for the full 33 seconds that 4 MJ permits, then the ES must also supply 1.32 MJ to the ES.
This can not be done, as it would clearly violate the rules. If you check appendix 3 of the technical regulations you will find this.

Art. 1.27
The difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on the track.
This phrase means that the ES is a bucket which can be emptied and refilled as many times as you like. So they can use more than 4MJ per lap.

Imagine you start the lap full, 4MJ. you use 0.5 MJ on the drag down to the first corner where you recover 0.5MJ under braking. You still have 4MJ going on to the second straight even though you’ve used 0.5MJ.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
-6
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:50 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:54 am
Supercharger mode could be entirely powered by the crank. If the MGU-K puts a 40-50kW drag on the crank to drive the turbo by sending that energy to the MGU-H then you don't use any ES energy to power the turbo. Wastegates can be fully open, just like the Ferrari does about 1 second after it's flat out. Very noticeable in Austria, Renault does this as well.
This can be done, but why?
The point of supercharger mode is to have maximum power out of PU.
K is already at maximum, so the only way is to get more from ICE by opening wastegates.
I think this is very inefficient so it would be used only during Q. If Ferrari could harvest a lot from H (let's say +80kw) in turbo-compound mode, then there would probably be enough energy to use e-charging on beginning of the straights.
I agreed with Godlameroso, had too, that the “K” can flow to and power the “H” because it not only can be done, but also is allowed. But my question is the same as yours, (BUT WHY?) use the ICE crankshaft in its most inefficient mode in this way? And certainly not done with waste gates open, because electric supercharging mode with waste gates open is meant to extract the maximum possible power output, Godlameroso seems to have forgotten that when the “k” flows to and powers the “H” the “K” is said to be harvesting, and harvesting by the “K: can only happen under braking, now I can’t figure out why anybody will use the engine at maximum power while the car is under braking.
And to you, sosic2121, as I said Ferrari are nowadays able to use the “FREE LOAD MODE” more and more even during the race.

User avatar
atanatizante
51
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

henry wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:15 am

...

So they can use more than 4MJ per lap.

...

Art. 1.27
The difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on the track.


Image

What`s the point of harvesting more than 4MJ per lap if you :
- can`t be allowed to use more than 4MJ via MGU-K
- you are not allowed to harvest more than 4MJ in the ES

And what is your opinion regarding my post here: viewtopic.php?p=779695#p779695
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

User avatar
atanatizante
51
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

roon wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:06 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:48 pm
roon wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:32 pm
...

There are no power limits for the MGUH. It could be 500hp for all we know. Correct me if I'm wrong. A greater-than-MGUK-output MGUH combined with sufficient ICE performance could keep the K sustained on its own, without resorting to Honda's ES>H>K type energy flow path.

...
That means producing 160HP constantly from MGU-H there is no reason to use ES anymore, isn`t it?
Only just that it`s needed to harvest the energy MGU-K is producing under braking. No to mention its use for spooling the turbo and engine ancillaries ...

Another question I would like to ask whether turbo spooling being linked via ICE through the crankshaft could aid in lowering mechanical ICE resistance (internal friction) hence lower the fuel consumption in the end?
Not quite. If full turbocompounding is used, they could still utilize the ES in a wastegates-open electric supercharger mode, with a non-H-driven MGUK, for 4MJ/lap, lasting up to 33 seconds (that oft repeated figure). Full piston power (no H reclamation) + 160 MGUK hp.

They will still attempt to harvest 2MJ/lap via the K under braking as permitted by the regs. The remaining 2MJ will still flow in via the H when it is advantageous to do so, reducing fuel efficiency or piston power momentarily. Topping up one usable half of the ES with 2MJ from the H is potentially faster than topping up the other usable half with the K, if the H makes more power than the K.

That could be the root of the Ferrari double battery rumour. One half optimized to recharge 120kW via the K, the other optimized to recharge at a higher rate via the H.

Mechanical turbocompounding would be more efficient at specific speeds. Mechanical variability comes at a cost to efficiency and weight--transmissions, clutches, etc. I do not know which type of system (electrical or mechanical) would be, net, more efficient.
Thanx for clarifying that!

But I also wanna see your opinion regarding my post here: viewtopic.php?p=779695#p779695
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

User avatar
JonoNic
11
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:54 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

All I would like to know if Mercedes, Renault and Honda can't understand what Ferrari is doing will it negatively affect this year's Championship. Also will there be even more gains for Ferrari with what they are doing with their PU.
Always find the gap then use it.

User avatar
henry
306
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:41 am
There is no question or doubt about how the F1 turbocharger is driven (being spun/rotated), why confuse this here discussion by pushing the possibility of turbocharger being gear or mechanically driven by the engine? When the turbocharger as used in F1 is driven/spun/rotated by the exhaust gasses it is working as a turbocharger, when the turbocharger (as a unit, compressor and turbine mandated to be on a common shaft) is driven/spun/rotated by the “H” with waste-gates open it is working as an electrically driven supercharger.
I did not mention mechanical supercharger, that is your interpretation of what I said, see below.

But you do agree with me that when driven by the H it is an “electrically driven supercharger”. Where we differ is that you think the H does this with no assistance from the turbine. That’s OK, it doesn’t change the way the system works just the numbers, the H consumes more energy at a higher rate (power) in your understanding.
When the “H’ is helping to reduce/eliminate turbo lag or to control the boost (turbo RPM) the turbo is being electrically assisted. The thing cannot be called or described/termed as just a supercharger without drive description.
Criticism accepted, I will remember to prefix supercharger with electrically driven.
The supposition that the FERRARI ES/battery inside the size and weight mandated box is split in two, with one part being charged by the “H” and one part being charged by the “K” does not make sense, as the part that is supposedly being charged by the “K” could never be fully recharged.
I did not propose this. So I won’t discuss it with you.
The 2017 Mercedes Spielberg “ERS” (and not “ES”) deployment article states that they managed to deploy 160 bhp for 33.33 seconds of the lap which amounts to approx. 50% of the 68 second lap, this on a lap with more straights than braking points. The article did not said or in any way meant that that deployment was deployed in one go, I am 100 percent sure that deployment was effected at viperous calculated advantageous points around the lap, if with the unlimited flow from “H” to “K” (160 bhp) being possible/allowed to flow from “K” to crankshaft for unlimited time, what was holding them back from deploying for longer than a time of 33.33 seconds per lap?.
Once again we return to this article.

You must trust your own knowledge and understanding of the regulations and not something written by someone who obviously understands it less well than you.

The answer to your question “ if with the unlimited flow from “H” to “K” (160 bhp) being possible/allowed to flow from “K” to crankshaft for unlimited time, what was holding them back from deploying for longer than a time of 33.33 seconds per lap?” is nothing in the regulations.

Whoever wrote the article didn’t understand this, I think you do but you are being mislead because the article is on Mercedes’ web page.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
-6
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

henry wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:15 am
dans79 wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:34 am
henry wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:33 pm
So in supercharger mode the ES is supplying 120KW to the MGU-K and a smaller amount, maybe 40KW, to the MGU-H. If supercharger mode is used for the full 33 seconds that 4 MJ permits, then the ES must also supply 1.32 MJ to the ES.
This can not be done, as it would clearly violate the rules. If you check appendix 3 of the technical regulations you will find this.

Art. 1.27
The difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on the track.
This phrase means that the ES is a bucket which can be emptied and refilled as many times as you like. So they can use more than 4MJ per lap.

Imagine you start the lap full, 4MJ. you use 0.5 MJ on the drag down to the first corner where you recover 0.5MJ under braking. You still have 4MJ going on to the second straight even though you’ve used 0.5MJ.
No they cannot use more than 4mj per lap and also for not more than 33.33 seconds per lap. when they "deploy" it doesnt mean that they are deploying full power (161BHP), They can deploy for the whole lap senze lifting and braking points, example, they can deploy 80.5 bhp for 66.66 seconds of the lap, or 53.66 bhp for 99.99 seconds of the lap or any proportion and combination of power and time in accordance with what the rules allow fro the "K" TO THE WHEELS. please note that this deployment of max 161BHP for 33.33 seconds per lap is only possible (after the first diployment from a full charge ES) by means of H harvesting

roon
roon
449
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

atanatizante wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:37 am
What`s the point of harvesting more than 4MJ per lap if you :
- can`t be allowed to use more than 4MJ via MGU-K
- you are not allowed to harvest more than 4MJ in the ES
One reason would be: you can send unlimited amounts of energy at unlimited rates from the ES to the H to the K. That's the big loophole often spoken of for the past year or so in the Honda power unit thread. Which is also useful for harvesting more than 2MJ with the MGUK.

Also useful for supercharger/wastegates-open mode. 4MJ to the K, any additional to the H motor for driving the compressor.
Last edited by roon on Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

wuzak
wuzak
358
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

JonoNic wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:43 am
All I would like to know if Mercedes, Renault and Honda can't understand what Ferrari is doing will it negatively affect this year's Championship. Also will there be even more gains for Ferrari with what they are doing with their PU.

I think it is a good thing if Ferrari extend their power advantage and make Mercedes work for a championship for a change.

User avatar
henry
306
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

atanatizante wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:37 am
henry wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:15 am

...

So they can use more than 4MJ per lap.

...
Art. 1.27
The difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on the track.


https://postimages.org/

What`s the point of harvesting more than 4MJ per lap if you :
- can`t be allowed to use more than 4MJ via MGU-K
- you are not allowed to harvest more than 4MJ in the ES

Because you can drive the MGU-H with it both as antilag and as electrical supercharger, free running mode.
And what is your opinion regarding my post here: viewtopic.php?p=779695#p779695
I’ll respond separately.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

wuzak
wuzak
358
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:30 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:50 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:54 am
Supercharger mode could be entirely powered by the crank. If the MGU-K puts a 40-50kW drag on the crank to drive the turbo by sending that energy to the MGU-H then you don't use any ES energy to power the turbo. Wastegates can be fully open, just like the Ferrari does about 1 second after it's flat out. Very noticeable in Austria, Renault does this as well.
This can be done, but why?
The point of supercharger mode is to have maximum power out of PU.
K is already at maximum, so the only way is to get more from ICE by opening wastegates.
I think this is very inefficient so it would be used only during Q. If Ferrari could harvest a lot from H (let's say +80kw) in turbo-compound mode, then there would probably be enough energy to use e-charging on beginning of the straights.
I agreed with Godlameroso, had too, that the “K” can flow to and power the “H” because it not only can be done, but also is allowed. But my question is the same as yours, (BUT WHY?) use the ICE crankshaft in its most inefficient mode in this way? And certainly not done with waste gates open, because electric supercharging mode with waste gates open is meant to extract the maximum possible power output, Godlameroso seems to have forgotten that when the “k” flows to and powers the “H” the “K” is said to be harvesting, and harvesting by the “K: can only happen under braking, now I can’t figure out why anybody will use the engine at maximum power while the car is under braking.
And to you, sosic2121, as I said Ferrari are nowadays able to use the “FREE LOAD MODE” more and more even during the race.
I would suggest they are using the MGUK to load the engine, not to drive the MGUH but to drive the MGUK.

A track like Silverstone has very little in the way of braking. Maybe 2 stops of any significance (with these cars). No way they are getting 2MJ of recovery in them. Probably 5-6s of braking where they can recover 120kW, so make it 600-720kJ of recovery.

The rest has to come from lift and coasting, the MGUH or driving the MGUK with the motor. I suggest the latter 2 were being used - not so much of the lift and coast, especially in the last 15 laps.

I believe Renault teams and Toro Rosso experienced clipping (ran out of energy) during the lap, while Mercedes probably didn't and Ferrari definitely didn't.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
-6
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

Harvesting by the "K" is only permitted under braking and not when lifting or coasting.
What happens under lifting or coasting is "de-rating". and not harvesting.

wuzak
wuzak
358
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:32 am
Harvesting by the "K" is only permitted under braking and not when lifting or coasting.
What happens under lifting or coasting is "de-rating". and not harvesting.
You'll have to show where it says the MGUK can only recover energy under braking.

wuzak
wuzak
358
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post

[quoteCowell, the managing director of Mercedes High Performance Powertrains, said it will remove "a lot of energy" from the engines.

He explained the MGU-H provides 60% of the electric energy used to power the other part of the energy recovery system, the MGU-K, and contributes 5% of the current engine's thermal efficiency.][/quote]
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13594 ... --mercedes

If you assume that the MGUK recovers 2MJ, that would mean the MGUH recovers 3MJ.

Not sure if he meant that was deplyed to the wheels, or not. If he did, that would mean deployment > 4MJ.