That’s a lot of electrical energy.wuzak wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 11:09I would suggest they are using the MGUK to load the engine, not to drive the MGUH but to drive the MGUK.saviour stivala wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 10:30I agreed with Godlameroso, had too, that the “K” can flow to and power the “H” because it not only can be done, but also is allowed. But my question is the same as yours, (BUT WHY?) use the ICE crankshaft in its most inefficient mode in this way? And certainly not done with waste gates open, because electric supercharging mode with waste gates open is meant to extract the maximum possible power output, Godlameroso seems to have forgotten that when the “k” flows to and powers the “H” the “K” is said to be harvesting, and harvesting by the “K: can only happen under braking, now I can’t figure out why anybody will use the engine at maximum power while the car is under braking.sosic2121 wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 08:50
This can be done, but why?
The point of supercharger mode is to have maximum power out of PU.
K is already at maximum, so the only way is to get more from ICE by opening wastegates.
I think this is very inefficient so it would be used only during Q. If Ferrari could harvest a lot from H (let's say +80kw) in turbo-compound mode, then there would probably be enough energy to use e-charging on beginning of the straights.
And to you, sosic2121, as I said Ferrari are nowadays able to use the “FREE LOAD MODE” more and more even during the race.
A track like Silverstone has very little in the way of braking. Maybe 2 stops of any significance (with these cars). No way they are getting 2MJ of recovery in them. Probably 5-6s of braking where they can recover 120kW, so make it 600-720kJ of recovery.
The rest has to come from lift and coasting, the MGUH or driving the MGUK with the motor. I suggest the latter 2 were being used - not so much of the lift and coast, especially in the last 15 laps.
I believe Renault teams and Toro Rosso experienced clipping (ran out of energy) during the lap, while Mercedes probably didn't and Ferrari definitely didn't.
Why wouldn't you? Say with a regular belt driven blower, to get the compressor output would likely cost you in excess of 120kW, electric energy transfer is leagues and bounds more efficient than mechanical energy transfer, you'd be dumb not to. At least in bursts, if nothing else it can be a shared output between the ES and the crank, or any capacitive engine ancillary. The point of all this is strategically using fuel to maximize the ES pool is not illegal and dumb to not exploit as the regulations do not disallow it.sosic2121 wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 08:50This can be done, but why?godlameroso wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 02:54Supercharger mode could be entirely powered by the crank. If the MGU-K puts a 40-50kW drag on the crank to drive the turbo by sending that energy to the MGU-H then you don't use any ES energy to power the turbo. Wastegates can be fully open, just like the Ferrari does about 1 second after it's flat out. Very noticeable in Austria, Renault does this as well.
The point of supercharger mode is to have maximum power out of PU.
K is already at maximum, so the only way is to get more from ICE by opening wastegates.
I think this is very inefficient so it would be used only during Q. If Ferrari could harvest a lot from H (let's say +80kw) in turbo-compound mode, then there would probably be enough energy to use e-charging on beginning of the straights.
Not correct. Even hybrid street cars harvest when you lift of the throttle and the same for LeMans formula e and formula 1. It is almost invisible but the cars will do this to different extents. Just depends on the programing.saviour stivala wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 11:32Harvesting by the "K" is only permitted under braking and not when lifting or coasting.
What happens under lifting or coasting is "de-rating". and not harvesting.
I can tell you are new to technical side of F1 but the general modus operandi here is to at least try to get your facts right before you make bold statements.saviour stivala wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 14:31Harvesting by the K is only possible when the brake pedal is being used. when lifting and coasting what happens is de-rating. harvesting when up-shifting!, that's a good joke.
Sorry my friend but it is quite obvious that you lack basic knowledge in Electromachinery, Power Electronics and 4Q drives. As PZ mentioned do some research first before making bold statements.saviour stivala wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 14:31Harvesting by the K is only possible when the brake pedal is being used. when lifting and coasting what happens is de-rating. harvesting when up-shifting!, that's a good joke.
I don’t think you can reduce these power units to a simple X + C calculation.atanatizante wrote: ↑13 Jul 2018, 15:52Your right but I think they must be developed a little bit these statements, don`t you think?
Maybe we would rather say it could occur in one of these situations:
1: ICE output + 160hp constant both in Q3 and the race ... Ferrari
2: ICE output + 160hp constant in Q3 + intermittently Q3 mode and less than 160hp but constant in the race ... Merc
3: ICE output + 160hp constant but only in Q3 + less than 160hp but constant in the race ... Renault
4: ICE output + less than 160hp constant in Q3 and less than 160hp but constant in the race ... Honda
And there must another differentiator factor which is ICE power max output, which is in the following order from my point of view: Ferrari > Merc > Renault > Honda ... I repeat, from power output not from the efficient side where I think Merc still has the edge ...
This year it`s fuel and combustion a priority for that being the largest area of development. But emphasis must be at the fuel side and that is for at least 2 reasons: one is that they are allowed fewer times (3 or 4) in the year when they could get an upgrade. And the second but the most important one is the calorific power hence fuel formulation. Those tiny percents which the petroleum companies are free to invent are so important nowadays. There are so magnificent technologies involved, using nanoparticles for improving combustion and lowers the internal friction and ICE wear ...
In conclusion, my argument for Ferrari ICE is the most powerful out there is due to fuel (formulation) rather than combustion (aka efficiency for Merc case) as there are some sources indicating that now Shell fuel formula gives them the upper hand in that HP race ... and another reason is that having max 160HP constant during the race they could also help them indirectly in the efficiency or fuel economy for they are using ICE less time than needed ...
The question is wether they understand it or not and if yes, if they are able to do it on their PU as well.
Thanks for the advise, "At the slightest error!" I will be extra careful, but at the moment am enjoying others errors.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 15:31I can tell you are new to technical side of F1 but the general modus operandi here is to at least try to get your facts right before you make bold statements.saviour stivala wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 14:31Harvesting by the K is only possible when the brake pedal is being used. when lifting and coasting what happens is de-rating. harvesting when up-shifting!, that's a good joke.
At the slightest error these guys will chew you up and spit you out like stale pop corn.