Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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That isn't in the regulations.

In the regulations (2017 I looked at), the word kinetic appears only in the definitions section:

1.25 Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic (MGU-K) :
The Kinetic Motor Generator Unit is the electrical machine mechanically linked to the drive train as part of the ERS.

The part of the engine regulations describing the MGUK:
5.2 Other means of propulsion and energy recovery :
5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted.
5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations.
When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).
Electrical DC measurements will be used to verify that the energy and power requirements are being respected.
A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.
5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.
The rotational speed of the MGU-K may not exceed 50,000rpm.
The weight of the MGU-K (as defined in line 11 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) may not be less than 7kg.
The maximum torque of the MGU-K may not exceed 200Nm. The torque will be referenced to the crankshaft speed and the fixed efficiency correction defined in Article 5.2.2 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K torque.
The laminate thickness of the MGU-K may not be less than 0.05mm.

5.13 Engine ancillaries :
All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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MGU-K where K stands for kinetic converts kinetic energy GENERATED UNDER BRAKING into electricity rather than it escaping as heat.

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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wuzak wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:09 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:30 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:50 am

This can be done, but why?
The point of supercharger mode is to have maximum power out of PU.
K is already at maximum, so the only way is to get more from ICE by opening wastegates.
I think this is very inefficient so it would be used only during Q. If Ferrari could harvest a lot from H (let's say +80kw) in turbo-compound mode, then there would probably be enough energy to use e-charging on beginning of the straights.
I agreed with Godlameroso, had too, that the “K” can flow to and power the “H” because it not only can be done, but also is allowed. But my question is the same as yours, (BUT WHY?) use the ICE crankshaft in its most inefficient mode in this way? And certainly not done with waste gates open, because electric supercharging mode with waste gates open is meant to extract the maximum possible power output, Godlameroso seems to have forgotten that when the “k” flows to and powers the “H” the “K” is said to be harvesting, and harvesting by the “K: can only happen under braking, now I can’t figure out why anybody will use the engine at maximum power while the car is under braking.
And to you, sosic2121, as I said Ferrari are nowadays able to use the “FREE LOAD MODE” more and more even during the race.
I would suggest they are using the MGUK to load the engine, not to drive the MGUH but to drive the MGUK.

A track like Silverstone has very little in the way of braking. Maybe 2 stops of any significance (with these cars). No way they are getting 2MJ of recovery in them. Probably 5-6s of braking where they can recover 120kW, so make it 600-720kJ of recovery.

The rest has to come from lift and coasting, the MGUH or driving the MGUK with the motor. I suggest the latter 2 were being used - not so much of the lift and coast, especially in the last 15 laps.

I believe Renault teams and Toro Rosso experienced clipping (ran out of energy) during the lap, while Mercedes probably didn't and Ferrari definitely didn't.
That’s a lot of electrical energy.

I would estimate that the MGU-H would need to be providing more than 80kW maybe as high as 90kW. to avoid clipping. Total deployment around 9 MJ/lap. They’d also be using a bit more than 2kg of fuel per lap which does seem feasible.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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on every upshift the K is made to help by momentarily generating - we have seen this in the telemetry
the K is continuously active by mapping - acting as generator when there's wheelspin

and Honda has told us that they get 2 MJ K harvest (and then K extra harvest beyond 2 MJ)

hybrid road cars regularly harvest when driving at partial torque not coasting
F1 at has mapped at partial torque demand significant K generation
and at zero torque demand the ICE can drive the K at full torque

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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Harvesting by the K is only possible when the brake pedal is being used. when lifting and coasting what happens is de-rating. harvesting when up-shifting!, that's a good joke.

PhillipM
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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The K is still harvesting - no matter whether you want to call it derating or not, it's physically harvesting energy, not deploying it.
Last edited by PhillipM on Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:50 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:54 am
Supercharger mode could be entirely powered by the crank. If the MGU-K puts a 40-50kW drag on the crank to drive the turbo by sending that energy to the MGU-H then you don't use any ES energy to power the turbo. Wastegates can be fully open, just like the Ferrari does about 1 second after it's flat out. Very noticeable in Austria, Renault does this as well.
This can be done, but why?
The point of supercharger mode is to have maximum power out of PU.
K is already at maximum, so the only way is to get more from ICE by opening wastegates.
I think this is very inefficient so it would be used only during Q. If Ferrari could harvest a lot from H (let's say +80kw) in turbo-compound mode, then there would probably be enough energy to use e-charging on beginning of the straights.
Why wouldn't you? Say with a regular belt driven blower, to get the compressor output would likely cost you in excess of 120kW, electric energy transfer is leagues and bounds more efficient than mechanical energy transfer, you'd be dumb not to. At least in bursts, if nothing else it can be a shared output between the ES and the crank, or any capacitive engine ancillary. The point of all this is strategically using fuel to maximize the ES pool is not illegal and dumb to not exploit as the regulations do not disallow it.

The Ferrari engine isn't necessarily better than the Mercedes engine, it's just that Ferrari knows how to run their engine better than everyone else. They strike the right balance between all the systems to let them fully deploy for the longest time, and maximize efficiency and output better than the others.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:32 am
Harvesting by the "K" is only permitted under braking and not when lifting or coasting.
What happens under lifting or coasting is "de-rating". and not harvesting.
Not correct. Even hybrid street cars harvest when you lift of the throttle and the same for LeMans formula e and formula 1. It is almost invisible but the cars will do this to different extents. Just depends on the programing.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:31 pm
Harvesting by the K is only possible when the brake pedal is being used. when lifting and coasting what happens is de-rating. harvesting when up-shifting!, that's a good joke.
I can tell you are new to technical side of F1 but the general modus operandi here is to at least try to get your facts right before you make bold statements.
At the slightest error these guys will chew you up and spit you out like stale pop corn.

Nonserviam85
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:31 pm
Harvesting by the K is only possible when the brake pedal is being used. when lifting and coasting what happens is de-rating. harvesting when up-shifting!, that's a good joke.
Sorry my friend but it is quite obvious that you lack basic knowledge in Electromachinery, Power Electronics and 4Q drives. As PZ mentioned do some research first before making bold statements.

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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atanatizante wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:52 pm
roon wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:32 pm
...

Put more simply:

Ferrari: ICE output + 160hp constant
Other teams: ICE output + 160hp or less, intermittently

...
Your right but I think they must be developed a little bit these statements, don`t you think?

Maybe we would rather say it could occur in one of these situations:

1: ICE output + 160hp constant both in Q3 and the race ... Ferrari

2: ICE output + 160hp constant in Q3 + intermittently Q3 mode and less than 160hp but constant in the race ... Merc

3: ICE output + 160hp constant but only in Q3 + less than 160hp but constant in the race ... Renault

4: ICE output + less than 160hp constant in Q3 and less than 160hp but constant in the race ... Honda

And there must another differentiator factor which is ICE power max output, which is in the following order from my point of view: Ferrari > Merc > Renault > Honda ... I repeat, from power output not from the efficient side where I think Merc still has the edge ...

This year it`s fuel and combustion a priority for that being the largest area of development. But emphasis must be at the fuel side and that is for at least 2 reasons: one is that they are allowed fewer times (3 or 4) in the year when they could get an upgrade. And the second but the most important one is the calorific power hence fuel formulation. Those tiny percents which the petroleum companies are free to invent are so important nowadays. There are so magnificent technologies involved, using nanoparticles for improving combustion and lowers the internal friction and ICE wear ...

In conclusion, my argument for Ferrari ICE is the most powerful out there is due to fuel (formulation) rather than combustion (aka efficiency for Merc case) as there are some sources indicating that now Shell fuel formula gives them the upper hand in that HP race ... and another reason is that having max 160HP constant during the race they could also help them indirectly in the efficiency or fuel economy for they are using ICE less time than needed ...
I don’t think you can reduce these power units to a simple X + C calculation.

There are 4 possible power outputs. (When running at 100kg/hr)

1. Electric supercharger mode. Basic ICE + MGU-K + extra ICE (from reduced back pressure)

2. Self sustain plus mode Basic ICE + MGU-K

3. Self sustain mode Basic ICE + MGU-Kh (power depends on the MGU-H)

4. ICE mode. Basic ICE

The only thing that is likely to be common across the manufacturers is the MGU-K power, 120kW. The other components can be differentiators on pure power, but the electric components can also be differentiators if they can be used longer.

This brings us to energy harvesting, again there are multiple modes

5. Braking mode. MGU-K to ES under Braking

6. Resistance mode. MGU-K to ES under part throttle acceleration

7. Heat mode. MGU-H to ES (used with mode 4, and also part throttle)

8. Extra harvest mode. MGU-K to MGU-H to ES. Only Honda admit to this

5 and 6 must not exceed 2MJ per lap

The way this all works together means that there is a balancing act between basic ICE power (crank power) and turbine power (which goes to the MGU-H). So when you say Ferrari are ahead on Max ICE power you may well be right, but I don’t think it is certain that this is the whole story. We have heard Honda say that they can make more crank power but that then turbine power goes down.

At this point in the formula I think we are looking at marginal gains, at least for Ferrari and Mercedes.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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JonoNic wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:43 am
All I would like to know if Mercedes, Renault and Honda can't understand what Ferrari is doing will it negatively affect this year's Championship. Also will there be even more gains for Ferrari with what they are doing with their PU.
The question is wether they understand it or not and if yes, if they are able to do it on their PU as well.

I'm not even 1% as knowledgeable as the intelligent guys talking about this matter here on several pages (i find it quite interesting to read and learn from, though). What I woud like to know is, if Ferrari's twin-battery arrangement possibly is required for the thing they are doing. They have been using that battery system for many years now, if I'm not mistaken, so one would think that it took them much time and work to make their intelligent "trick" possible. And on the other hand, it would also mean hard work for others to go down the same path.

Marci
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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Do Ferraris still somoke at startup in pits?Recently I haven't heard about that.If not , since when, and why don't they do that?

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:31 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:31 pm
Harvesting by the K is only possible when the brake pedal is being used. when lifting and coasting what happens is de-rating. harvesting when up-shifting!, that's a good joke.
I can tell you are new to technical side of F1 but the general modus operandi here is to at least try to get your facts right before you make bold statements.
At the slightest error these guys will chew you up and spit you out like stale pop corn.
Thanks for the advise, "At the slightest error!" I will be extra careful, but at the moment am enjoying others errors.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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some of what you say is impossible is shown to be in use eg by the telemetry that Honda has shown and explained

this (maybe 6 months ago) and earlier telemetry should be easy to find eg in the Honda PU thread and other PU threads
you might also read the 2014-2020 thread and the Ters thread