Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

Assuming an average full-throttle lap time of ~64s, a fully utilized MGUK (as regulated) will consume a minimum of approximately 8MJ/lap, plus whatever is used at part and zero throttle. The ES can only send 4MJ to the MGUK (as regulated), so the remaining 4+MJ must be supplied by the MGUH or by the ES via the MGUH. Said another way:

4MJ to the MGUK at 120kW, 2MJ from the MGUK at 120kW
>4MJ to the MGUH at >120kW, >4MJ from the MGUH at >120kW

The ES cannot vary in charge more than 4MJ per lap, so in order to deliver >8MJ per lap it much charge and discharge multiple times per lap. Two or more ES divisions (chemical or virtual) will alter how this charge cycling is allotted.

Not quite, the ES cannot have more than a 4MJ difference in state of charge per lap. This technicality is important, because 'state of charge' strictly refers to energy sent to the MGU-K, not to energy sent anywhere else. This means that the ES can deploy in excess of 4MJ/lap as only energy sent to the MGU-K counts against the state of charge. Therefore the ES is likely somewhere between 8-10MJ.

[saviour stivala]

8 MJ per lap deployment! That I call being very liberal with the deployment rules.
It is hard to see an ES capacity of less than a minimum of 8 mj being used, this because it is not good practice, can even be dangerous to rapidly discharge an ES more than 50% of its capacity inside a few minutes.

[henry]

Assuming an average full-throttle lap time of ~64s, a fully utilized MGUK (as regulated) will consume a minimum of approximately 8MJ/lap, plus whatever is used at part and zero throttle. The ES can only send 4MJ to the MGUK (as regulated), so the remaining 4+MJ must be supplied by the MGUH or by the ES via the MGUH. Said another way:

4MJ to the MGUK at 120kW, 2MJ from the MGUK at 120kW
>4MJ to the MGUH at >120kW, >4MJ from the MGUH at >120kW

The ES cannot vary in charge more than 4MJ per lap, so in order to deliver >8MJ per lap it much charge and discharge multiple times per lap. Two or more ES divisions (chemical or virtual) will alter how this charge cycling is allotted.

Not quite, the ES cannot have more than a 4MJ difference in state of charge per lap. This technicality is important, because 'state of charge' strictly refers to energy sent to the MGU-K, not to energy sent anywhere else. This means that the ES can deploy in excess of 4MJ/lap as only energy sent to the MGU-K counts against the state of charge. Therefore the ES is likely somewhere between 8-10MJ.

I’m afraid not. SOC refers to the difference in charge level not only per lap but at any time it’s on the track. So if the ES exits the garage at 12MJ it can never go below 8. But it can cycle between those two levels as much as it likes and the energy can be sent anywhere.

[henry]

8 MJ per lap deployment! That I call being very liberal with the deployment rules.
It is hard to see an ES capacity of less than a minimum of 8 mj being used, this because it is not good practice, can even be dangerous to rapidly discharge an ES more than 50% of its capacity inside a few minutes.

You are right about the need to avoid deep discharge of the ES.

However it is perfectly allowable to deploy more than 4MJ per lap from the ES. At the bare minimum, 4MJ to the MGU-K and some to the MGU-H to deal with anti-lag. In addition if they run electric supercharger mode, free running, then additional energy must be sent to the MGU-H.

As well as the energy deployed from the ES to the MGU-K energy can also flow from the MGU-H to the MGU-K that gets added to the 4MJ that can be sent from the ES.

[roon]

...the ES cannot have more than a 4MJ difference in state of charge per lap. This technicality is important, because 'state of charge' strictly refers to energy sent to the MGU-K, not to energy sent anywhere else.

The first sentence is correct. The second is not; state-of-charge for the ES is simply that, and ignores destination.

This means that the ES can deploy in excess of 4MJ/lap as only energy sent to the MGU-K counts against the state of charge.

Incorrect, all ES deployment counts against the state of charge. There are no qualifications.

Therefore the ES is likely somewhere between 8-10MJ.

It may be much higher (see below). Also, I clarified the post you're replying to. I hope it reads better.

SOC refers to the difference in charge level not only per lap but at any time it’s on the track. So if the ES exits the garage at 12MJ it can never go below 8. But it can cycle between those two levels as much as it likes and the energy can be sent anywhere.

Exactly. As well, the sky's the limit in terms of peak ES capacity. If there's a direct correlation between discharge rate, reliability, and capacity, then peak capacity may be higher than any of us imagine.

[henry]

Assuming an average full-throttle lap time of ~64s, a fully utilized MGUK (as regulated) will consume a minimum of approximately 8MJ/lap, plus whatever is used at part and zero throttle. The ES can only send 4MJ to the MGUK (as regulated), so the remaining 4+MJ must be supplied by the MGUH or by the ES via the MGUH. Said another way:

4MJ to the MGUK at 120kW, 2MJ from the MGUK at 120kW
>4MJ to the MGUH at >120kW, >4MJ from the MGUH at >120kW

The ES cannot vary in charge more than 4MJ per lap, so in order to deliver >8MJ per lap it much charge and discharge multiple times per lap. Two or more ES divisions (chemical or virtual) will alter how this charge cycling is allotted.

Yes the ES does need to charge and discharge multiple times round a lap.

Whilst it is insightful to think of them deploying the MGU-K all the time they are at WOT I don’t think that’s what they do. It is more laptime efficient to run electric supercharger at the beginning of the straight, switch to ICE plus MGU-K and finally switch off the MGU-K and charge the ES, they might even use the MGU-K as well, sort of lift and coast plus. This of course makes it difficult to estimate what the total,energy flow is.

If I had to guess, and I’m going to, I would opt for Ferrari using two virtual batteries, switching between them to manage temperatures. My guess is, and it’s only a guess, is that the charge and discharge heat the core of each battery cell and the cooling is at the perimeter. So if the duty cycle switches between cells they can potentially perform at a lower core temperature, which I believe is beneficial to battery performance and life. Maybe even reduce losses, which is important because they measure charge in and out but make no allowance for efficiency.

I don’t know why this would make it difficult to monitor the SOC, or whatever the FIA were measuring. Perhaps there are cumulative errors in measurement and Ferrari’s approach gave them a benefit from those errors.

[wuzak]

Assuming an average full-throttle lap time of ~64s, a fully utilized MGUK (as regulated) will consume a minimum of approximately 8MJ/lap, plus whatever is used at part and zero throttle. The ES can only send 4MJ to the MGUK (as regulated), so the remaining 4+MJ must be supplied by the MGUH via the ES or ICE. Said another way:

ES fed MGUK (per lap energy use)
Deploy: ≤4MJ at ≤120kW
Regen: ≤2MJ at ≤120kW

MGUH (via ICE and/or ES) fed MGUK (per lap energy use)
Deploy: ≥4MJ at ≤120kW
Regen: ≥4MJ at ≤120kW

The ES cannot vary in charge more than 4MJ per lap, so in order to deliver >8MJ per lap it must charge and discharge multiple times per lap. Two or more ES divisions (chemical or virtual) will alter how this charge cycling is allotted. No comment on the actual peak capacity of the ES.

Edit: clarified message.

In reality, if the ERS is deploying 8MJ per lap, it is likely that 6MJ of that comes from the MGUH, since the MGUK can only recover 2MJ (as you have noted).

The Honda trick of recovering MGUK to the ES via the MGUH is also possible, but I am still uncertain to the benefit.

[godlameroso]

...the ES cannot have more than a 4MJ difference in state of charge per lap. This technicality is important, because 'state of charge' strictly refers to energy sent to the MGU-K, not to energy sent anywhere else.

The first sentence is correct. The second is not; state-of-charge for the ES is simply that, and ignores destination.

This means that the ES can deploy in excess of 4MJ/lap as only energy sent to the MGU-K counts against the state of charge.

Incorrect, all ES deployment counts against the state of charge. There are no qualifications.

Therefore the ES is likely somewhere between 8-10MJ.

It may be much higher (see below). Also, I clarified the post you're replying to. I hope it reads better.

SOC refers to the difference in charge level not only per lap but at any time it’s on the track. So if the ES exits the garage at 12MJ it can never go below 8. But it can cycle between those two levels as much as it likes and the energy can be sent anywhere.

Exactly. As well, the sky's the limit in terms of peak ES capacity. If there's a direct correlation between discharge rate, reliability, and capacity, then peak capacity may be higher than any of us imagine.

That's not what this picture says, and I hate bringing it up because I feel it's a dead horse. It very specifically says "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGU-K" it does not say "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to any MGU". In fact it very specifically says ES to and from MGU-H is unlimited. You cannot read subjective interpretations into the rules, you have to interpret them objectively. State of charge only refers to energy sent to the MGU-K per lap. State of charge = 4MJ/lap, only 4MJ/lap can be sent to the MGU-K it's very straight forward.

[wuzak]

That's not what this picture says, and I hate bringing it up because I feel it's a dead horse. It very specifically says "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGU-K" it does not say "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to any MGU". In fact it very specifically says ES to and from MGU-H is unlimited. You cannot read subjective interpretations into the rules, you have to interpret them objectively. State of charge only refers to energy sent to the MGU-K per lap. State of charge = 4MJ/lap, only 4MJ/lap can be sent to the MGU-K it's very straight forward.

There are 2 regulations at play.

• Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGUK
• The difference between the maximum and minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on track

The latter is regarding the battery. At any one time the storage is effectively only 4MJ. The battery capacity could be much higher, however. That means that the state of charge is 4MJ higher than the minimum state of charge of your battery, you cannot put any more in, no matter where it comes from.

It is quite possible that the 4MJ/lap from ES to MGUK could be met with a lower state of charge allowance, like 2MJ, as the energy is continually going in and out.

[saviour stivala]

Assuming an average full-throttle lap time of ~64s, a fully utilized MGUK (as regulated) will consume a minimum of approximately 8MJ/lap, plus whatever is used at part and zero throttle. The ES can only send 4MJ to the MGUK (as regulated), so the remaining 4+MJ must be supplied by the MGUH via the ES or ICE. Said another way:

ES fed MGUK (per lap energy use)
Deploy: ≤4MJ at ≤120kW
Regen: ≤2MJ at ≤120kW

MGUH (via ICE and/or ES) fed MGUK (per lap energy use)
Deploy: ≥4MJ at ≤120kW
Regen: ≥4MJ at ≤120kW

The ES cannot vary in charge more than 4MJ per lap, so in order to deliver >8MJ per lap it must charge and discharge multiple times per lap. Two or more ES divisions (chemical or virtual) will alter how this charge cycling is allotted. No comment on the actual peak capacity of the ES.

Edit: clarified message.

Your assumption of 8 MJ + per lap deployment has been surpassed elsewhere by another assumption of 9 MJ. Fascinating reading so far which pushes the numbers possibilities well past the “K” deployment numbers possibilities. The good thing about all this is that their seems to be no risk of anybody being eaten up for breakfast.

[saviour stivala]

Assuming an average full-throttle lap time of ~64s, a fully utilized MGUK (as regulated) will consume a minimum of approximately 8MJ/lap, plus whatever is used at part and zero throttle. The ES can only send 4MJ to the MGUK (as regulated), so the remaining 4+MJ must be supplied by the MGUH or by the ES via the MGUH. Said another way:

4MJ to the MGUK at 120kW, 2MJ from the MGUK at 120kW
>4MJ to the MGUH at >120kW, >4MJ from the MGUH at >120kW

The ES cannot vary in charge more than 4MJ per lap, so in order to deliver >8MJ per lap it much charge and discharge multiple times per lap. Two or more ES divisions (chemical or virtual) will alter how this charge cycling is allotted.

Not quite, the ES cannot have more than a 4MJ difference in state of charge per lap. This technicality is important, because 'state of charge' strictly refers to energy sent to the MGU-K, not to energy sent anywhere else. This means that the ES can deploy in excess of 4MJ/lap as only energy sent to the MGU-K counts against the state of charge. Therefore the ES is likely somewhere between 8-10MJ.

It has been estimated by some in the know that within the FIA ES size and weight constrains at F1 level enough cells can be crammed together to make up a battery capacity of 12 MJ. But no matter the capacity size the difference between a fully charged and discharged states (deployment) is maximum 4 MJ.

[saviour stivala]

8 MJ per lap deployment! That I call being very liberal with the deployment rules.
It is hard to see an ES capacity of less than a minimum of 8 mj being used, this because it is not good practice, can even be dangerous to rapidly discharge an ES more than 50% of its capacity inside a few minutes.

You are right about the need to avoid deep discharge of the ES.

However it is perfectly allowable to deploy more than 4MJ per lap from the ES. At the bare minimum, 4MJ to the MGU-K and some to the MGU-H to deal with anti-lag. In addition if they run electric supercharger mode, free running, then additional energy must be sent to the MGU-H.

As well as the energy deployed from the ES to the MGU-K energy can also flow from the MGU-H to the MGU-K that gets added to the 4MJ that can be sent from the ES.

What flows from "H" to "K" doesnt mean that it can be added to what flows from "ES" to conviniatly say that more than 4MJ can be flow/deployed from "ES". No wounder the confussion those following finds theselves in when trying to figure what is what and which is which.

[Pierce89]

8 MJ per lap deployment! That I call being very liberal with the deployment rules.
It is hard to see an ES capacity of less than a minimum of 8 mj being used, this because it is not good practice, can even be dangerous to rapidly discharge an ES more than 50% of its capacity inside a few minutes.

You are right about the need to avoid deep discharge of the ES.

However it is perfectly allowable to deploy more than 4MJ per lap from the ES. At the bare minimum, 4MJ to the MGU-K and some to the MGU-H to deal with anti-lag. In addition if they run electric supercharger mode, free running, then additional energy must be sent to the MGU-H.

As well as the energy deployed from the ES to the MGU-K energy can also flow from the MGU-H to the MGU-K that gets added to the 4MJ that can be sent from the ES.

What flows from "H" to "K" doesnt mean that it can be added to what flows from "ES" to conviniatly say that more than 4MJ can be flow/deployed from "ES". No wounder the confussion those following finds theselves in when trying to figure what is what and which is which.

Its perfectly legal for the PU to deploy more than 4 Mj per lap. However, anything above the 4 Mj must travel directly from the H to the K, because the rules say you can only deploy 4 Mj from the ES. The H to K route was purposely left unlimited to encourage development of the H/turbo system. Overall though, I feel they're deploying around 6-8 Mj per lap of electrical energy(at most tracks). Like I said, though, only 4 Mj of that can come from the ES and anything above that must travel from the H directly to the K without passing through the ES. The rules aren't too complicated if you actually bother to read them.

As an aside, (I mean this in a completely constructive and non-insulting way) you might want to work on the way you talk to people as it doesn't look like you've made many friends in this thread. You come off as "I know more than you", when its obvious you don't know more. You just seem to lack respect when talking to others and in an environment like this, respect is vital. We don't want arguments and flame wars at f1t. Oops, I meant gpt. As this was meant to help and not argue, If you respond negatively, I will ignore it. I genuinely just want to help everyone get along at GPT, as it seems to be the only forum of its type (that I know of). Thanks in advance for being more respectful, and more importantly, thanks for being part of the GPT community.

[saviour stivala]

As far as I know electrical power deployment can only be deployed by the “K” and not by the “PU”. Deploying 6-8 MJ per lap of electrical power, 4 MJ of which must be from the “ES” and the rest from the”H”, are conservative numbers compared to other numbers that have been banded about. However assuming that is correct, and on that lap the driver has managed to harvest by braking what is permitted, what happens on the next lap with a 50% charged “ES”?. If it is not qualifying, what sort of race strategy is that?. We had seen what happened with one of the red bulls when the driver said he had no deployment power left and he was told that he used it all.
I honestly don’t mean any disrespect to anybody, disagreeing does not mean that. I consider my knowledge as being able to just scratch the top of F1 matters, This being confirmed by being told that I risk being eaten up for breakfast by the more knowledgeable folks on here.

[henry]

That's not what this picture says, and I hate bringing it up because I feel it's a dead horse. It very specifically says "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to MGU-K" it does not say "Max 4MJ/lap from ES to any MGU". In fact it very specifically says ES to and from MGU-H is unlimited. You cannot read subjective interpretations into the rules, you have to interpret them objectively. State of charge only refers to energy sent to the MGU-K per lap. State of charge = 4MJ/lap, only 4MJ/lap can be sent to the MGU-K it's very straight forward.
https://statics.sportskeeda.com/wp-cont ... 24x606.jpg

According to your mental model what happens if 500kJ is sent from the ES to the MGU-H during a lap to deal with turbo lag? How many Joules can be sent to the MGU-K during that lap?

If I understand your position it would be reduced to 3.5MJ. And if they were to use electric supercharger mode the K would get less still.