Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:34 am

Also, see this article (http://www.powersourcesconference.com/P ... s/21-3.pdf) especially figure 1. Saft can make li-Ion batteries with different chemistries tailored to the use scenario. I think by mixing these already available technologies the manufacturer can make a more efficient battery pack. Not to mention Saft will probably be more than willing to do custom chemistries.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:48 am

As said further up in this thread...
A battery for rapid cycling - MGUH 'tings
And a battery for slower cycling - MGUK 'tings
mystery solved... 8)
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:30 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:48 am
As said further up in this thread...
A battery for rapid cycling - MGUH 'tings
And a battery for slower cycling - MGUK 'tings
mystery solved... 8)
And higher c-rates for both. I think specifically what they are doing is still a mystery.

We have some theories but we lack real numbers, particularly efficiency levels at higher c-rates. The Saft paper may give some of that but I’m such a tyro with batteries that I am still learning to interpret their data. For instance the chart showing a “35C race cycles” would match 120kW into 12MJ but the durations shown, and the gap between the two periods of activity are hard to link to F1 practise.
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by kalinka » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:56 pm

Brake Horse Power wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:56 pm
What if it is a 2 piece battery because part one is saft pouch type lithium battery. Part 2 is an extremely efficiënt supercap which is able to be instantly charged and uncharged. The abity to react quickly very efficient could make sense when combined with the 20hz MGU-H generating. Energy density is lower than lithium tough, so if the supercap is flooding this energy will need to go to the lithium battery.

Skeletontech actually mentions supercaps is very suitable for KERS applications.
https://www.skeletontech.com/high-end
This would also explain the much bigger size of the Ferrari unit compared to Honda, despite the 25kg limit. Supercaps would be of less capacity but lighter and bigger, so the overall ES size should be bigger, but about the same mass.

subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:21 pm

I took a look at the use case webinar on the skeleton tech site. I have to say the 'formula car', which appears to be Formula E ??, slide doesn't make any sense to me.

Image

Positives:
- They state Li-Ion can only harvest up to 70% of braking energy
- Ultracapacitor can harvest up to 95% of braking energy
- Lighter, more saved energy, 5x less volume(!)

Negatives:
- Its a sales webinar, there are no negatives!

Inconsistencies:
- Ultracapacitor weight 25kg, Energy (Only!) 50 Wh - Am I missing something on the capacitor rating?

Edit: Here is the page with their documentation (requires signup to view): https://www.skeletontech.com/downloads
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:42 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:21 pm
I took a look at the use case webinar on the skeleton tech site. I have to say the 'formula car', which appears to be Formula E ??, slide doesn't make any sense to me.

https://i.imgur.com/1Ksb0fq.jpg

Positives:
- They state Li-Ion can only harvest up to 70% of braking energy
- Ultracapacitor can harvest up to 95% of braking energy
- Lighter, more saved energy, 5x less volume(!)

Negatives:
- Its a sales webinar, there are no negatives!

Inconsistencies:
- Ultracapacitor weight 25kg, Energy (Only!) 50 Wh - Am I missing something on the capacitor rating?

Edit: Here is the page with their documentation (requires signup to view): https://www.skeletontech.com/downloads
Capacitors aren't meant for big storage, they are meant for rapid charge and discharge, to act as a buffer for a battery. They may have batteries and capacitors combined, where the capacitor has enough charge capacity to accept whatever load from the electrical machines, and to feed that energy to the ES at a more favorable rate and vice versa.

If any of you have installed sound systems on cars you know capacitors are a must to deal with sudden bass spikes which can short the battery.
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by sosic2121 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:13 pm

henry wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:51 pm
Care to say why you don’t think it’s viable? I don’t know much about batteries and I’d like to know a little more.

I think I owe you an apology.
I'm sorry for my late answer.
When "Ferrari 2 batteries" became a thing, I considered Li-ion + supercapacitors. After doing some research and lots of thinking, I had a "feeling" that by optimising one part of the battery, you compromise the other part too much.
Maybe if ES had to do only race laps, then you could rate battery at 60kw(or 120kw) and have SCs to add another 120(or 60).
But during Q big portion of the lap ES outputs 180kw. If SC can keep with those demands, then use li-ion batteries in the first place!?
Basically, what ever battery you choose for some part, is 10kgs of it more efficient than 20kgs of "regular" battery?
IMO I don't think so.

P.S. I have learned more from you than you could ever learn from me, so there is no need for apologies :D

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by sosic2121 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Some time ago I had a theory about Ferrari ES switchable cell arrangement in order to optimise input and output voltage.
Now I would like to add piece of technology from OPPO.

https://youtu.be/ODeImrQs3ME

subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:29 pm

Nice video! That makes a lot more sense now.

Of the disadvantages offered in the video; #1, Cost, no an issue in F1, #2, Safety, Meh....
How to make F1 better: "Less aero, more power, no DRS!" - Paul Charsley

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:35 pm

sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:13 pm
henry wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:51 pm
Care to say why you don’t think it’s viable? I don’t know much about batteries and I’d like to know a little more.

I think I owe you an apology.
I'm sorry for my late answer.
When "Ferrari 2 batteries" became a thing, I considered Li-ion + supercapacitors. After doing some research and lots of thinking, I had a "feeling" that by optimising one part of the battery, you compromise the other part too much.
Maybe if ES had to do only race laps, then you could rate battery at 60kw(or 120kw) and have SCs to add another 120(or 60).
But during Q big portion of the lap ES outputs 180kw. If SC can keep with those demands, then use li-ion batteries in the first place!?
Basically, what ever battery you choose for some part, is 10kgs of it more efficient than 20kgs of "regular" battery?
IMO I don't think so.

I understand your reasoning on the difference between the demands of the race and qualifying. However I don’t think they need to be concerned about qualifying. Providing the battery is safe and can provide energy it doesn’t matter how efficient it is during qualifying. If it operates at a low efficiency at the 180kW you propose any shortfall can be made up with energy pre-charged in the pits before the qualifying session. The reckoning of energy in and out, and SOC, is done with a single sensor at the connection point between the ES and the ERS controller. It only cares about the energy flows. It won’t mind if some of that flow comes from pre-charge or not.

As an example, suppose the car starts a qualifying lap with 16MJ ceiling charge in the ES, during the lap the ES sensor sees an input during part throttle operation of 20 seconds at an average rate of 140kW. That’s 2.8MJ that might have been stored, but if the efficiency of the ES at that rate is 90% only 2.5MJ gets stored. During e-boost operation on that lap the ES sensor would see a discharge rate of 180kW. If the efficiency is similar then to send all of the charge that’s been recorded as available(2.8MJ) the ES would need to provide 3.1MJ. The shortfall of 0.6MJ would be made up for by using energy pre-charged in the car before qualifying.

These are completely made up numbers but I think they show that efficiency during qualifying is unlikely to be a consideration for battery organisation other than for consideration of battery operating temperature and cooling.
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dans79 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:47 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:35 pm
It won’t mind if some of that flow comes from pre-charge or not.
that is illegal per appendix 3
The amount of stored energy in any ES may not be increased whilst the car is stationary in the pit lane or garage during the qualifying session or during a race pit stop.

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:49 pm

dans79 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:47 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:35 pm
It won’t mind if some of that flow comes from pre-charge or not.
that is illegal per appendix 3
The amount of stored energy in any ES may not be increased whilst the car is stationary in the pit lane or garage during the qualifying session or during a race pit stop.
It can be charged prior to both race and qualifying. Hence the term “during”.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by sosic2121 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:24 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:35 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:13 pm
henry wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:51 pm
Care to say why you don’t think it’s viable? I don’t know much about batteries and I’d like to know a little more.

I think I owe you an apology.
I'm sorry for my late answer.
When "Ferrari 2 batteries" became a thing, I considered Li-ion + supercapacitors. After doing some research and lots of thinking, I had a "feeling" that by optimising one part of the battery, you compromise the other part too much.
Maybe if ES had to do only race laps, then you could rate battery at 60kw(or 120kw) and have SCs to add another 120(or 60).
But during Q big portion of the lap ES outputs 180kw. If SC can keep with those demands, then use li-ion batteries in the first place!?
Basically, what ever battery you choose for some part, is 10kgs of it more efficient than 20kgs of "regular" battery?
IMO I don't think so.

I understand your reasoning on the difference between the demands of the race and qualifying. However I don’t think they need to be concerned about qualifying. Providing the battery is safe and can provide energy it doesn’t matter how efficient it is during qualifying. If it operates at a low efficiency at the 180kW you propose any shortfall can be made up with energy pre-charged in the pits before the qualifying session. The reckoning of energy in and out, and SOC, is done with a single sensor at the connection point between the ES and the ERS controller. It only cares about the energy flows. It won’t mind if some of that flow comes from pre-charge or not.

As an example, suppose the car starts a qualifying lap with 16MJ ceiling charge in the ES, during the lap the ES sensor sees an input during part throttle operation of 20 seconds at an average rate of 140kW. That’s 2.8MJ that might have been stored, but if the efficiency of the ES at that rate is 90% only 2.5MJ gets stored. During e-boost operation on that lap the ES sensor would see a discharge rate of 180kW. If the efficiency is similar then to send all of the charge that’s been recorded as available(2.8MJ) the ES would need to provide 3.1MJ. The shortfall of 0.6MJ would be made up for by using energy pre-charged in the car before qualifying.

These are completely made up numbers but I think they show that efficiency during qualifying is unlikely to be a consideration for battery organisation other than for consideration of battery operating temperature and cooling.
You are right, efficiency is not important during Q.
Maybe you're right.
Then ES could be made of:
-battery optimised for 60kw, but still able to output 180kw,
-supercapacitor able to provide 120kW for couple of seconds(according to my basic calculations 10kg of commercially available supercapacitors would output 120kW for 4.5s).

GrandAxe
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GrandAxe » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:12 am

I mentioned quite similar ideas to the current discussion about ultracapacitors a couple of months ago. Here are links:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21958&p=785976&hili ... or#p785976
and
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21958&p=785749&hili ... or#p785749

Because an ultracapacitor's charge/discharge rates, cooling requirements, operating voltage etc are radically different from that of a normal battery; any algorithms running on a system like described above would likely need to treat the ultracapacitor as a battery distinct from the normal battery - hence the Ferrari system might see two batteries, even when there's only one.

Using an ultracapacitor in the way described in the links above would be marginal on the rules, but would enable a greater amount of deployment energy than a literal interpretation of the energy flow diagram would prescribe.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by wuzak » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:41 am

henry wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:49 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:47 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:35 pm
It won’t mind if some of that flow comes from pre-charge or not.
that is illegal per appendix 3
The amount of stored energy in any ES may not be increased whilst the car is stationary in the pit lane or garage during the qualifying session or during a race pit stop.
It can be charged prior to both race and qualifying. Hence the term “during”.
In qualifying the ES could be charged before the first lap in Q1. But it cannot be for any subsequent lap - if a driver does 2 runs in each session, that is 5 runs that they cannot pre-charge.

For the big 3 teams, it is more likely 4 or 5 runs, but that still means the more important 3 or 4 runs have to be done without charging in the pits.