Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:44 pm

Though this graph from Q3 shows it's just like last year with Ferrari having an advantage starting at around 225km/h.
It's even bigger this year. This wasn't the case in Melbourne so it seems that Ferrari only now turned the engine up to its limit.

Toto Wolff: "With lower drag, you're only gaining a tenth at most. That's sheer engine power."

From AMuS:
The engineers had jumped into their analyses right after the training. First statement: "Ferrari gains on us on the straights with and without DRS. So it has nothing to do with drag." Second finding: "During the test drives in Barcelona we were on a par in terms of power. In Melbourne we were slightly ahead. In Bahrain they were clearly superior to us. The outlier was Melbourne. Something must have gone dramatically wrong with Ferrari."
[...]
"They beat us at the beginning of the straight with more power and in the second half because they don't switch off the MGU-K as early as we do. Our speed curve flattens out in the end. Ferrari's continues to rise."
Image

Here is a graph from Melbourne. Quite different, no power boost.
Image
via funoanalisitecnica.com

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:00 pm

Last year I looked at the speed data from Hockenheim that AMUS published and drew the conclusion that Ferrari keep the MGU-K going longer and then at the end of the straight they use both the MGU-H and the MGU-K simultaneously to charge the ES.

The trace for the first straight at Bahrain seems to show a similar effect.

If they are doing this it means they can afford to charge the ES at a very high rate, perhaps 190kW. Two batteries anyone?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:10 pm

henry wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:00 pm
Last year I looked at the speed data from Hockenheim that AMUS published and drew the conclusion that Ferrari keep the MGU-K going longer and then at the end of the straight they use both the MGU-H and the MGU-K simultaneously to charge the ES.

The trace for the first straight at Bahrain seems to show a similar effect.

If they are doing this it means they can afford to charge the ES at a very high rate, perhaps 190kW. Two batteries anyone?
Because the Ferrari drops off after hitting top speed and Merc staying at it until braking?

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:12 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:10 pm
henry wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:00 pm
Last year I looked at the speed data from Hockenheim that AMUS published and drew the conclusion that Ferrari keep the MGU-K going longer and then at the end of the straight they use both the MGU-H and the MGU-K simultaneously to charge the ES.

The trace for the first straight at Bahrain seems to show a similar effect.

If they are doing this it means they can afford to charge the ES at a very high rate, perhaps 190kW. Two batteries anyone?
Because the Ferrari drops off after hitting top speed and Merc staying at it until braking?
Yes that’s it.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zibby43 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:44 pm

What are we to make of this? (Credit to user GPR-A for locating/translating this)

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/power ... e/4362961/

"Two institutes for recording phonometric data presented themselves with their state-of-the-art tools in Sakhir to gather very interesting information on the 2019 engine power.

The major controls of the FIA, therefore, have made impossible a practice to the limit, if not beyond. The surveys, in fact, read a peak of 990 horses in Q3 when Ferrari and Mercedes used the most extreme engine maps.

Some would have pointed out that the Ferrari power unit would be able to make better use of the electric power of the MGU-H, while the Mercedes would have a small advantage in the endothermic engine. The fact is that, according to phonometric data, the two engines are practically the same and if the W10s in Bahrain had been slower than the speed trap in qualifying it was only because they were more loaded with wings."

MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:04 pm

I'm still convinced that this is a joke..google phonometric gives no results. Anyways I can't get my head around on how that should even work.

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zibby43 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:35 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:04 pm
I'm still convinced that this is a joke..google phonometric gives no results. Anyways I can't get my head around on how that should even work.
This isn't the joke article.

Phonometric analysis is a type of sound analysis that the teams use. The phonometric recordings provide information about the rotational speeds at play.

Here's the article in English:

https://thejudge13.com/2019/04/01/unfor ... s-in-2019/

erikejw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by erikejw » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:43 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:44 pm
Though this graph from Q3 shows it's just like last year with Ferrari having an advantage starting at around 225km/h.
It's even bigger this year. This wasn't the case in Melbourne so it seems that Ferrari only now turned the engine up to its limit.

Toto Wolff: "With lower drag, you're only gaining a tenth at most. That's sheer engine power."

From AMuS:
The engineers had jumped into their analyses right after the training. First statement: "Ferrari gains on us on the straights with and without DRS. So it has nothing to do with drag." Second finding: "During the test drives in Barcelona we were on a par in terms of power. In Melbourne we were slightly ahead. In Bahrain they were clearly superior to us. The outlier was Melbourne. Something must have gone dramatically wrong with Ferrari."
[...]
"They beat us at the beginning of the straight with more power and in the second half because they don't switch off the MGU-K as early as we do. Our speed curve flattens out in the end. Ferrari's continues to rise."
https://i.redd.it/7c7f8vyxxfp21.png

Here is a graph from Melbourne. Quite different, no power boost.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2uWntiWkAASoT6.jpg
via funoanalisitecnica.com
I think this trace is faulty or changed to misrepresent reality.

The curve seems shifted later in the lap, that will make Ferraris look faster speedwise than they really are.

Reasons, the further in on the lap the earlier LeClerc uses DRS compared to Hamilton. The start of applying DRS should overlap.

The speed differential over the finish line is larger than the measured 3 kph.

Early in the lap LeC outbreaks Ham, next stop they are equal, then Hamilton starts to outbreak LeC at every corner unless we assume its timeshifted.

It looks like Hamilton earn all time during breaking and LeC eats it back on the straights.

But in reality they are matched in breaking and on the straights, if we correct the readings and assume they are timeshifted.

I wonder who provided the charts to Amus and the reasons for it? Maybe some entity wants to spin the story that the Ferrari engine is more powerful than it is, maybe it is an honest mistake. In the world of F1 there are many layers to uncover :) every advantage is a step towards victory.

munudeges
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by munudeges » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:46 pm

We'll see what protests Merc come out with, or if something more covert goes on like last year. Mercedes will definitely know what's going on here, because the Ferrari advantage is all engine.

bill shoe
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by bill shoe » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:22 am

MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:04 pm
I'm still convinced that this is a joke..google phonometric gives no results. Anyways I can't get my head around on how that should even work.
The audio ("phonometric" in Google Translate) analysis gives info on frequencies of various components. It probably gives insight into whether the H is running and how hard, this being determined by differences between car accel and engine rpm relative to turbo whine (blade-pass frequency). It may be able to determine if the K is under load due to increased noise/whine from the geartrain between K and crankshaft. This noise analysis can't determine power curves which already come from the GPS data that the FIA shares with all teams. The noise analysis can give more detailed perspective on what a competitor's powertrain is doing over the course of a lap where the teams already know the competitor's net delivered power from the GPS. Noise analysis helps reveal a competitor's means to achieving their end.

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zibby43 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:02 am

bill shoe wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:22 am
MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:04 pm
I'm still convinced that this is a joke..google phonometric gives no results. Anyways I can't get my head around on how that should even work.
The audio ("phonometric" in Google Translate) analysis gives info on frequencies of various components. It probably gives insight into whether the H is running and how hard, this being determined by differences between car accel and engine rpm relative to turbo whine (blade-pass frequency). It may be able to determine if the K is under load due to increased noise/whine from the geartrain between K and crankshaft. This noise analysis can't determine power curves which already come from the GPS data that the FIA shares with all teams. The noise analysis can give more detailed perspective on what a competitor's powertrain is doing over the course of a lap where the teams already know the competitor's net delivered power from the GPS. Noise analysis helps reveal a competitor's means to achieving their end.
Insightful and illuminating explanation.

In the comments section of his most recent report, Mark Hughes addresses phonometric analysis and how teams use both phonometric and GPS data to get the full picture.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:52 am

In Bahraini weekend the SF 90’s were simply fastest in pretty much every part of the track, at every trap, at end of straights, at corner exits, in short both FERRARI’S were faster everywhere. If it results that FERRARI will race Leclerc’s Bahrian power unit again in china new fresher/objections/protests than the old ones from last season will be the order of the day, and we will have a field day talking them up.

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zibby43 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:01 am

Is there any telemetry comparing Hamilton and Vettel?

The reason I ask is, if the straight-line speed difference is down to sheer engine power, rather than Merc running a bit more wing on both cars, why is it that Vettel only just shaded Hamilton in qualifying and that Hamilton had equal (if not better) race pace compared to Vettel?

I have started seeing some tweets indicating that Vettel, Hamilton, and Bottas all were running quite a bit more wing than Charles L.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:15 am

erikejw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:43 pm


Reasons, the further in on the lap the earlier LeClerc uses DRS compared to Hamilton. The start of applying DRS should overlap.
The reason Leclerc's DRS opens earlier is because he is ahead on lap time. The other traces have been overlaid to give a comparison at any point in time, but the DRS is shown at the point in the lap time that the flap was opened. Leclerc was ahead so his DRS naturally opens earlier in time.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Marble » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:18 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:44 pm

https://i.redd.it/7c7f8vyxxfp21.png

Here is a graph from Melbourne. Quite different, no power boost.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2uWntiWkAASoT6.jpg
via funoanalisitecnica.com
Both graphs were found on funoanalisitecnica ? Can't find the articles, could you help please ?