Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Tue May 07, 2019 8:22 pm

I did not buy the spin BS the like that was given to Honda forced introduction of their first engine upgrade before schedule, and neither will I the FERRARI one. With the penalty rules as are, an upgrade introduced before schedule is a forced introduction, which to me spells at least 95% reliability problems, at least possibly. Reliability problems doesn’t mean parts of the engine have to break-dawn, it can mean maximum power output usage is being held back from being used. FERRARI doesn’t need more power, they need to be able to use that power more often/and for longer in the race.
Once engine 2 is introduced, and provided engine 1 can still be used, it means that engine 2 can skip FP1 and 2 running, and that means that engine 2 running can be stretched for more than 7 races, but those that will be able to introduce engine 2 in Canada will end up with at least a 2-FP3/qualifying/race fresher engine mileage wise.

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Tue May 07, 2019 9:06 pm

Spain is quite low demand for full power:
Here are some percentages

Monaco 23
Singapore 30
Mexico 42
Spain 51
Hungary 52
China 54
USA 60
Azerbaijan 61
Bahrain 62
Canada 63
Australia 68
Russia 68
Brazil 69
Malaysia 71
Japan 76
Britain 78
Belgium 78
Austria 84

Figures from Honda article page 844 of Honda thread, figures from 2017 above 90% accelerator
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Tue May 07, 2019 9:25 pm

“Spain is quite low demand for full power” which goes some way to explain what I was saying.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Tue May 07, 2019 9:43 pm

For the record, the power unit element usage situation as it stands. “2019 F1 power unit elements usage- Azerbaijan GP. STATUS:- after the 2019 Azerbaijan GP. (MaxF1,net)".

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed May 08, 2019 5:54 am

aleks_ader wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:13 pm
I believe teams do FP to Q swaps already. But yeah is complicated for the crew etc. Indeed it is very early in the season as it is normal procedure. I guess Ferrari had issues with 1st batch of PUs this season. Hence the reason why they speed up spec2. I think they figure it out that spec1 cannot reliably run on max settings. Or at least they saw bigger gain on long run with early spec2. And they can run spec 1 in less power depended circuits. Or on FP on couple of races.
To be able to do free practice 1 and 2 with one engine and swap for free practice 3/qualifying and race engine, one will first have to take a second engine from the pool of three, and taking a second engine from the pool of three, it will be registered as having been used once it crosses the pit-lane-out line.

Juzh
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Juzh » Wed May 08, 2019 8:08 am

henry wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:06 pm
Spain is quite low demand for full power:
Here are some percentages

Monaco 23
Singapore 30
Mexico 42
Spain 51
Hungary 52
China 54
USA 60
Azerbaijan 61
Bahrain 62
Canada 63
Australia 68
Russia 68
Brazil 69
Malaysia 71
Japan 76
Britain 78
Belgium 78
Austria 84

Figures from Honda article page 844 of Honda thread, figures from 2017 above 90% accelerator
The track was repaved last year and laptimes dropped a lot so this number must have gone up significantly. This year turn 2 and 3 will be easy flat and turn 9 will also be flat.

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Wed May 08, 2019 9:04 am

Juzh wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:08 am
henry wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:06 pm
Spain is quite low demand for full power:
Here are some percentages

Monaco 23
Singapore 30
Mexico 42
Spain 51
Hungary 52
China 54
USA 60
Azerbaijan 61
Bahrain 62
Canada 63
Australia 68
Russia 68
Brazil 69
Malaysia 71
Japan 76
Britain 78
Belgium 78
Austria 84

Figures from Honda article page 844 of Honda thread, figures from 2017 above 90% accelerator
The track was repaved last year and laptimes dropped a lot so this number must have gone up significantly. This year turn 2 and 3 will be easy flat and turn 9 will also be flat.
Good point. How much difference do you think that will make? I still think Barcelona is at the lower end of power demand, although maybe the number of full throttle straights would be a better discriminator.

Here for completeness is the same data by length of time at full accelerator, perhaps significant for reliability.

Monaco 16.931
Singapore 30.354
Mexico 32.638
Hungary 40.325
Spain 41.334
Canada 46.427
China 50.961
Brazil 54.936
Austria 55.106
USA 57.004
Bahrain 57.073
Australia 58.089
Azerbaijan 63.644
Malaysia 65.110
Russia 65.729
Japan 68.922
Britain 70.668
Belgium 81.970
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Juzh
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Juzh » Wed May 08, 2019 11:42 am

henry wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:04 am
Juzh wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:08 am
henry wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:06 pm
Spain is quite low demand for full power:
Here are some percentages

Monaco 23
Singapore 30
Mexico 42
Spain 51
Hungary 52
China 54
USA 60
Azerbaijan 61
Bahrain 62
Canada 63
Australia 68
Russia 68
Brazil 69
Malaysia 71
Japan 76
Britain 78
Belgium 78
Austria 84

Figures from Honda article page 844 of Honda thread, figures from 2017 above 90% accelerator
The track was repaved last year and laptimes dropped a lot so this number must have gone up significantly. This year turn 2 and 3 will be easy flat and turn 9 will also be flat.
Good point. How much difference do you think that will make? I still think Barcelona is at the lower end of power demand, although maybe the number of full throttle straights would be a better discriminator.

Here for completeness is the same data by length of time at full accelerator, perhaps significant for reliability.

Monaco 16.931
Singapore 30.354
Mexico 32.638
Hungary 40.325
Spain 41.334
Canada 46.427
China 50.961
Brazil 54.936
Austria 55.106
USA 57.004
Bahrain 57.073
Australia 58.089
Azerbaijan 63.644
Malaysia 65.110
Russia 65.729
Japan 68.922
Britain 70.668
Belgium 81.970
Last year it was ~46s at full throttle (100%, not 90%). This year, with higher drag and most likely inherently faster cars in high speed turns, it'll probably be a few seconds more. A bit below 50s is a safe bet for this year. If we assume 1.15.5 for pole time, then 50s would make for 66.2% of 100% throttle.

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by LM10 » Wed May 08, 2019 5:03 pm

Article from Franco Nugnes and Giorgio Piola on italian motorsport telling that the spec 2 PU is gonna have steel pistons, after 2 years of experimenting. Article also mentions 3D metal-jet printers that allow creating objects of composite material which would have been complex to do in traditional fusioning processes.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferra ... a/4383573/

MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Wed May 08, 2019 6:50 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 5:03 pm
Article from Franco Nugnes and Giorgio Piola on italian motorsport telling that the spec 2 PU is gonna have steel pistons, after 2 years of experimenting. Article also mentions 3D metal-jet printers that allow creating objects of composite material which would have been complex to do in traditional fusioning processes.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferra ... a/4383573/
I remember this was already reported back in 2017 but maybe this time it's finally true or still just some persistent rumour :) For sure they won't say anything officially.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed May 08, 2019 8:46 pm

Franco Nugnes:- "the mouths in Maranello are sawn, but according to the few 'rumors' that filter it would be time to debut the bi-metal alloy pistons".

roon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Wed May 08, 2019 11:14 pm

Bi-metal alloy meaning two alloys used in one part? I.e. steel crown, aluminum skirt/piston body.

Otherwise bi-metal alloy sounds redundant. Inherently all alloys are at least bi-metal.

Gibbs
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Gibbs » Thu May 09, 2019 11:29 am

There is a research paper that was published in 2018 from the University of Milan which detailed the challenges of producing an additive manufactured piston out of Steel. Specifically the study focused on FEA analysis. The conclusion was that there are potential benefits to the method but a complete redesign of the engine was needed to harness the full potential of additive manufactured pistons. The piston's anisotropic nature, an increased concentration of heat around the valve seat, and an increase in weight (between traditionally manufactured aluminium and AM steel pistons) were stated as some of the difficulties in producing the piston this way. The conclusion also stated that higher thermal and mechanical loading could be possible.

I'm not saying the article isn't factual but are Ferrari going to risk introducing a technology which is still not fully understood and requires a redesign of many different areas of the engine, during their second update in the fifth race whilst they are still in the fight for the championship? Maybe Ferrari and Mahle have been working hard at understanding this technology, but the complications and headache it brings for a potential gain seems immense in terms of time vs. resources.

source

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu May 09, 2019 11:30 am

Yes bi-metal alloys means "A metal made by combining two or more metals". In 31 Jan 2017 Franco Nugnes:- “Although manufacturers are limited by the FIA in terms of materials they can use, FERRARI is looking to move away from aluminum that is commonly used. Test are now ongoing about a novel piston design concept that uses a new ‘steel alloy’". Once again his article is based on “according to a few rumors that filter”.
There was no change from 2017 to 2019 FIA technical regulations as regards engine “materials and construction 5.15 to 5.19 including 5.17.1 “pistons must respect article 5.16 A, B, C, D, E, F, G and H”.
While now Nugnes is saying that 'according to rumors that filter'--- “FERRARI are going to introduce their developed bi-metal alloy steel pistons in Spain this week with a gain of 10hp. 6 or 7 days ago on the Honda engine thread I asked for a link to be provided as regards claims that steel pistons are being used in F1, and was told the following "there is no link--- I was flying in a plane, and next to me was an employee of a supplier working directly with those pistons, we started to chat and he confirmed me both FERRARI and Honda are using steel pistons". Are we now assured? is it confirmed? do we now start saying that steel pistons are being used?.

MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Thu May 09, 2019 12:47 pm

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