Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:11 pm

If as said the FERRARI MGU-H is in the vee it is ahead of the 90 degree ‘up’ air intake elbow so the turbo shaft drive to and from MGU-H must go out of the compressor intake and through the air intake elbow .

MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:30 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:11 pm
If as said the FERRARI MGU-H is in the vee it is ahead of the 90 degree ‘up’ air intake elbow so the turbo shaft drive to and from MGU-H must go out of the compressor intake and through the air intake elbow .
How is it air tight sealed then? Or doesn't it have to be?
If it has to be air tight I think it would make sense to seal it around the MGU-H itself so that the whole shaft and front of the MGU-H is inside the 'intake elbow' rather than having it go through one side of it.

roon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:28 am

MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:30 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:11 pm
If as said the FERRARI MGU-H is in the vee it is ahead of the 90 degree ‘up’ air intake elbow so the turbo shaft drive to and from MGU-H must go out of the compressor intake and through the air intake elbow .
How is it air tight sealed then? Or doesn't it have to be?
If it has to be air tight I think it would make sense to seal it around the MGU-H itself so that the whole shaft and front of the MGU-H is inside the 'intake elbow' rather than having it go through one side of it.
Reference the Renault installation. Identical layout. fwiw Ferrari were rumored to have a split turbo behind the engine 2014-2015. Not sure if true.

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saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:35 am

Air-tight sealing of a rotating shaft going through the air intake elbow is nothing big. Remember that this is the suction side and not the pressure side of the compressor.

Jejking
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Jejking » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:45 pm

According to rumours, the third engine granted in the 2019 season by the FIA for the 21 races without penalty should guarantee an important leap in performance that will not only be combined with a specific fuel which has been developed by Shell.

The power unit of the Prancing Horse should bring to the track about 20 horsepower more than the previous one as a result of a greater push combustion management being able to better exploit the pistons in bi-metallic material that allow the possibility to increase the pressure in the chamber.
http://scuderiafans.com/ferrari-to-intr ... t9Dnd3Gtro
Good news on the PU front, as long as they don't absolutely implode in plumes of smoke. Also: what bi-metallic material can they be talking about?

gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:06 pm

One example would be typical aluminium alloy for the skirt etc with higher temperature material - steel - for the piston crown.
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roon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:27 am

How about steel for the skirt and wrist, aluminum for the crown. I know we have been speculating the opposite itt. But consider. That frail pancake of aluminum atop a steel waffle. As steel, the waffle can be more sparse and thin, its wrist hoops and skirts thinner. Which would allow more oil access to the base of the aluminum crown.

If the crown is steel, will they need higher temperature tolerant oil?

Also, how might they be joining these materials together? Welding, fasteners, interference?

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:04 am

The main advantage of steel is the higher crown temps permissible. This reduces heat loss from the working fluid and therefore efficiency. Steel has a lower thermal conductivity so there will be a higher thermal gradient ie lower temp on the underside of the crown -> no oil problem.
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:59 pm

On steel pistons the oil tends to coke around the ring grooves - particularly on the top land. This can be so severe that the carbon build-up can actually start polishing the liner.

It is not uncommon for industrial engines to employ "scrapers" - rings which are interference fitted into the liner just above the top ring reversal, having an internal diameter slightly smaller than the bore in order to remove deposits from the top land.

It is said coking starts at around 400°C surface temperatures exposed to oil. This is not at all a high temperature for steel pistons. Al pistons do not even reach 300°C.
How much TQ does it make though?

gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:43 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:59 pm
On steel pistons the oil tends to coke around the ring grooves - particularly on the top land. This can be so severe that the carbon build-up can actually start polishing the liner.

It is not uncommon for industrial engines to employ "scrapers" - rings which are interference fitted into the liner just above the top ring reversal, having an internal diameter slightly smaller than the bore in order to remove deposits from the top land.

It is said coking starts at around 400°C surface temperatures exposed to oil. This is not at all a high temperature for steel pistons. Al pistons do not even reach 300°C.
Do you think this would be an issue in the F1 engine? In its favour are such things as:
- Short service life
- Custom oil formulation with cost no object
- Intermittent operation at rated power
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:56 am

gruntguru wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:43 pm
Do you think this would be an issue in the F1 engine? In its favour are such things as:
- Short service life
- Custom oil formulation with cost no object
- Intermittent operation at rated power
I'm tempted to say it wouldn't be an issue in F1 engines as their service life is about 3 orders of magnitude lower than that of an industrial engine.

Having said that and thinking about how ridiculously small the F1 ring grooves tend to be it is possible that a small amount of build up could affect oil consumption if the mechanism employed to pressurize the back of the ring is disrupted.

Since I suspect that the minimum ring tension is mostly dictated by the oil consumption requirements, the ring performance degradation (coking, bore wear and tension loss over the engine life) could be an important factor.
How much TQ does it make though?

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:46 am

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Brake Horse Power
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Brake Horse Power » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:07 pm

Giovinazzi said that the engine he blew was a new Ferrari spec?

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:09 pm

Brake Horse Power wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:07 pm
Giovinazzi said that the engine he blew was a new Ferrari spec?
Yes it was. He and both Haas' got the spec 3 engine this weekend.

bosyber
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by bosyber » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:29 pm

And GIO is getting a new spec 3 again (so starts at the back) - makes sense if they are also a test to see whether Ferrari should take it in Monza.