Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:56 am
gruntguru wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:43 pm
Do you think this would be an issue in the F1 engine? In its favour are such things as:
- Short service life
- Custom oil formulation with cost no object
- Intermittent operation at rated power
I'm tempted to say it wouldn't be an issue in F1 engines as their service life is about 3 orders of magnitude lower than that of an industrial engine.

Having said that and thinking about how ridiculously small the F1 ring grooves tend to be it is possible that a small amount of build up could affect oil consumption if the mechanism employed to pressurize the back of the ring is disrupted.

Since I suspect that the minimum ring tension is mostly dictated by the oil consumption requirements, the ring performance degradation (coking, bore wear and tension loss over the engine life) could be an important factor.
Piston rings are one of the most critical components in these engines. The engineering that goes into developing them for the current needs is quite extensive. A lot of trial and error and fine tuning. Piston rings are currently the weakest link in the chain.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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According to AMuS Ferrari will only now introduce the spec 3 engine for Leclerc and Vettel. Haas and Alfa got a new spec 2 engine in Spa. Makes me wonder why they wouldn't insist on getting a spec 3 one if this is true anyways.

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:45 pm
According to AMuS Ferrari will only now introduce the spec 3 engine for Leclerc and Vettel. Haas and Alfa got a new spec 2 engine in Spa. Makes me wonder why they wouldn't insist on getting a spec 3 one if this is true anyways.
I thought I read an entire article about how Haas and Alfa got the Spec 3 in advance at Spa, and that the Spec 3 is what went boom in Gio's car?

Was that article incorrect?

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:48 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:45 pm
According to AMuS Ferrari will only now introduce the spec 3 engine for Leclerc and Vettel. Haas and Alfa got a new spec 2 engine in Spa. Makes me wonder why they wouldn't insist on getting a spec 3 one if this is true anyways.
I thought I read an entire article about how Haas and Alfa got the Spec 3 in advance at Spa, and that the Spec 3 is what went boom in Gio's car?

Was that article incorrect?
Yep saw that too. They haven't made up their mind on it it seems :lol:

Here's what I was referring to now:
Ferrari gets new engines just in time for Monza. It should not be the version that Haas and Alfa Romeo used with Giovonazzi in Spa. The customer teams had to make it with a new old specification that can be driven longer in the highest power levels. The last stage of development is exclusive for the factory team.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... 019-monza/

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:59 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:48 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:45 pm
According to AMuS Ferrari will only now introduce the spec 3 engine for Leclerc and Vettel. Haas and Alfa got a new spec 2 engine in Spa. Makes me wonder why they wouldn't insist on getting a spec 3 one if this is true anyways.
I thought I read an entire article about how Haas and Alfa got the Spec 3 in advance at Spa, and that the Spec 3 is what went boom in Gio's car?

Was that article incorrect?
Yep saw that too. They haven't made up their mind on it it seems :lol:

Here's what I was referring to now:
Ferrari gets new engines just in time for Monza. It should not be the version that Haas and Alfa Romeo used with Giovonazzi in Spa. The customer teams had to make it with a new old specification that can be driven longer in the highest power levels. The last stage of development is exclusive for the factory team.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... 019-monza/
Oh I 100% believed what you were reporting on via your source initially - you always post good, reliable content.

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy. :lol: In the article I had read, I think there were even quotes from Ferrari personnel as to why they let the customer teams have the new specs first, etc. Nonetheless, I appreciate you sharing the source as well.

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Any idea what this means?

https://twitter.com/SmilexTech/status/1 ... 47877?s=20

"Today Giovinazzi: 'At the level of maximum performance the new PU is very close to the previous one.' Tomorrow the EVO 2 Ferrari will also be on the SF90. To paint Monza red."

Zynerji
Zynerji
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:05 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:56 am
gruntguru wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:43 pm
Do you think this would be an issue in the F1 engine? In its favour are such things as:
- Short service life
- Custom oil formulation with cost no object
- Intermittent operation at rated power
I'm tempted to say it wouldn't be an issue in F1 engines as their service life is about 3 orders of magnitude lower than that of an industrial engine.

Having said that and thinking about how ridiculously small the F1 ring grooves tend to be it is possible that a small amount of build up could affect oil consumption if the mechanism employed to pressurize the back of the ring is disrupted.

Since I suspect that the minimum ring tension is mostly dictated by the oil consumption requirements, the ring performance degradation (coking, bore wear and tension loss over the engine life) could be an important factor.
Piston rings are one of the most critical components in these engines. The engineering that goes into developing them for the current needs is quite extensive. A lot of trial and error and fine tuning. Piston rings are currently the weakest link in the chain.
I'm sure it's been discussed, but why no lapped pistons like R/C engines? Some of them hit 40kRPM already. I'd expect with the r&d put into the combustion chamber of the current engines that someone would have tried this by now.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:16 pm
Any idea what this means?

https://twitter.com/SmilexTech/status/1 ... 47877?s=20

"Today Giovinazzi: 'At the level of maximum performance the new PU is very close to the previous one.' Tomorrow the EVO 2 Ferrari will also be on the SF90. To paint Monza red."
EVO 2, the second evolution? So spec 3 in other words I think.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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“Any idea what this means?” convulsive and confusing reporting that jumbles and confuses.
31 August official formula 1 web-site.
“FERRARI give customers Haas and Alfa Romeo engine upgrade….”
“While Mercedes, Renault and Honda made new specification power units available to their works teams in Belgium, as well as their customers, FERRARI have opted for a different strategy, with only Haas and ALFA Romeo taking the units. Haas duo have taken a new ICE, TURBO and MGU-H as did Giovinazzi, but Alfa Romeo opted not to give Kimi the new engine, it is anticipated the Fin will take the new specification at the following race in Italy, where FERRARI are expected to give their works drivers the upgrade too.”

wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:16 pm
Any idea what this means?

https://twitter.com/SmilexTech/status/1 ... 47877?s=20

"Today Giovinazzi: 'At the level of maximum performance the new PU is very close to the previous one.' Tomorrow the EVO 2 Ferrari will also be on the SF90. To paint Monza red."
I'm guessing that it means that the peak power is not much different to the older spec, but that the PU is improved in other areas, which improves the overall economy.

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:56 am
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:16 pm
Any idea what this means?

https://twitter.com/SmilexTech/status/1 ... 47877?s=20

"Today Giovinazzi: 'At the level of maximum performance the new PU is very close to the previous one.' Tomorrow the EVO 2 Ferrari will also be on the SF90. To paint Monza red."
EVO 2, the second evolution? So spec 3 in other words I think.
Okay, that's what I suspected. Initially I had read "EVO 2" as Spec 2, which was curious.

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:40 am
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:16 pm
Any idea what this means?

https://twitter.com/SmilexTech/status/1 ... 47877?s=20

"Today Giovinazzi: 'At the level of maximum performance the new PU is very close to the previous one.' Tomorrow the EVO 2 Ferrari will also be on the SF90. To paint Monza red."
I'm guessing that it means that the peak power is not much different to the older spec, but that the PU is improved in other areas, which improves the overall economy.
Think you're spot on there, and that's how I read that part, but I was thrown off by the EVO 2 nomenclature, as I explained above.

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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Zynerji wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:55 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:05 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:56 am


I'm tempted to say it wouldn't be an issue in F1 engines as their service life is about 3 orders of magnitude lower than that of an industrial engine.

Having said that and thinking about how ridiculously small the F1 ring grooves tend to be it is possible that a small amount of build up could affect oil consumption if the mechanism employed to pressurize the back of the ring is disrupted.

Since I suspect that the minimum ring tension is mostly dictated by the oil consumption requirements, the ring performance degradation (coking, bore wear and tension loss over the engine life) could be an important factor.
Piston rings are one of the most critical components in these engines. The engineering that goes into developing them for the current needs is quite extensive. A lot of trial and error and fine tuning. Piston rings are currently the weakest link in the chain.
I'm sure it's been discussed, but why no lapped pistons like R/C engines? Some of them hit 40kRPM already. I'd expect with the r&d put into the combustion chamber of the current engines that someone would have tried this by now.
Because they would be piss poor at sealing.
How much TQ does it make though?

Zynerji
Zynerji
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:05 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:55 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:05 pm


Piston rings are one of the most critical components in these engines. The engineering that goes into developing them for the current needs is quite extensive. A lot of trial and error and fine tuning. Piston rings are currently the weakest link in the chain.
I'm sure it's been discussed, but why no lapped pistons like R/C engines? Some of them hit 40kRPM already. I'd expect with the r&d put into the combustion chamber of the current engines that someone would have tried this by now.
Because they would be piss poor at sealing.
That seems a bit illogical at first, care to educate on why? My logic would expect a closer fitting piston in an ultra-tolerance manufacturing environment would yield the closest-to-theoretical-perfect results compared to an inherently changing diameter and the slosh of classic piston rings.

Change my mind.

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rscsr
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:22 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:05 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:55 am


I'm sure it's been discussed, but why no lapped pistons like R/C engines? Some of them hit 40kRPM already. I'd expect with the r&d put into the combustion chamber of the current engines that someone would have tried this by now.
Because they would be piss poor at sealing.
That seems a bit illogical at first, care to educate on why? My logic would expect a closer fitting piston in an ultra-tolerance manufacturing environment would yield the closest-to-theoretical-perfect results compared to an inherently changing diameter and the slosh of classic piston rings.

Change my mind.
The advantage of piston rings is to be able to tune the contact forces. It is essentially a spring.
As you say you want the piston to be as tight as possible. But since the piston is relatively stiff you could end up with huge pressure when you end up on the tight side of the tolerances. But on the other hand you will always have clearance when you are on the correct side of the tolerances.
Additionally and maybe the bigger concern is that neither the piston nor the engine block deforms uniformly and both are deforming differently during the power stroke and combustion. So you would need to have it tight enough for one stroke, but can't be too tight for another.
Therefore you use a "soft" springy device that seals the piston. Ergo the piston rings. Additionally this can be used to tune and balance the friction and sealing of the piston.

RC engine pistons are pretty forgiving. They are usually pretty high and aren't they two stroke engines anyway?