Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
aral
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by aral » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:00 am

This thread has descended into a "I know better than you" tit for tat. The simple fact is that if there is nothing in the rules preventing a driver using the tools at his disposal, then there is nothing wrong with it. It is a driver related procedure and any driver in any car can use the harvesting as he wishes. Using the brakes whilst on throttle will be putting additional strain on power train and on the brakes, but if the car can cope with it....fine. There is no need for all this personal argy bargy.

ringo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ringo » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:07 am

I suspect the type of Motor being used for the KERS may be the trick.
What do the regs say about this?
Possibly Ferrari's motor may behave like more than one type of motor; depending on if it's charging or deploying, who knows?
For Sure!!

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:45 pm

The 120kw rule is about the feeded power. The more efficiënt, the better. But we are talking about a few %

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:16 am

Wherever the FERRAI power advantage is coming from. GPS analysis is provided to teams at each race by the FIA and from this information can be calculated - to within a workable degree of accuracy. From these calculations FERRARI’s Q3 advantage over Mercedes tends to be around 20-30 BHP and around 20 BHP in the race.

djones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by djones » Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:43 am

Is there anything after the fule sensor that could be used to store extra fuel temporarily?

I'm not saying its this. But for example, a special injector that also has a small reservoir. That can then be used to inject extra fuel for a short period of time.

Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:54 am

Off the top of my head FIA have imposed a minimum post-flowmeter volume as well as a maximum hydraulic compliance so whatever fuel could be stored after the sensor has been limited in the last couple seasons or so.
How much TQ does it make though?

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:09 am

What they have done to store fuel in the past:

Use the high pressure fuel rails. Fuel pressure is allowed to be 500 bar, but 200-250 bar is enough for good injections. During full throttle, they would lower the pressure from 500 to 200 and make use of the extra fuel which was in the rails at 500 bar.

Use flexible fuel lines, which under high pressure would swell up and take some extra fuel. If the pressure is lowered, under full throttle, the lines would return to their original size and the engine uses the excess fuel.

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:12 am

But personally, i think the extra power comes from being able to drive with open wastegates for a longer duration. They can probably harvest more when wastegates are closed.

djones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by djones » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:19 am

NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:12 am
But personally, i think the extra power comes from being able to drive with open wastegates for a longer duration. They can probably harvest more when wastegates are closed.
But as they are only able to deploy this extra power in short bursts (i.e. not all the time in a race), would this suggest whatever they are doing involves storing something up?

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:46 am

With open waste-gates (free load mode/electric supercharging mode) at full fueling the MGU-K and MGU-H are sharing battery (ES) power. Maximum battery (ES) power is regulated by the rules.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:16 pm

though everything apparently conceivable has been said before we can remember that ....

the 120 kW limit is really 126.3 kW DC line power (120 kW is based on entitlement to be treated as 95% efficient)
if the K efficiency (machine x 'controller') is higher than 95% the 120 kW is more than 120 kW

there's 300 kJ storage allowed in eg the 'controller' (that hasn't necessarily come via the battery can avoid the 4MJ limit)

and ...
the fuel will compress 4% between 1 bar and 500 bar
the mean 500 bar might even be cycleable eg between 0 bar and 1000 bar

Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:01 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:46 am
With open waste-gates (free load mode/electric supercharging mode) at full fueling the MGU-K and MGU-H are sharing battery (ES) power. Maximum battery (ES) power is regulated by the rules.
Wrong again.
Only maximum MGUK power is limited hence maximum ESS power (MGUK + MGUH) is unlimited.
How much TQ does it make though?

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:05 pm

Driving with open wastegates means there is no energy recovery from the mgu-h. Instead it costs more energy, because the battery has to power both mgu-h and mgu-k. As a result this wil deplete the battery and one could only do his for a short amount of time.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:11 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:05 pm
Driving with open wastegates means there is no energy recovery from the mgu-h....
not so
there is (some) energy recovery without any difference in mean pressure across the turbine
because of the kinetic energy of the exhaust pulses
the so-called blowdown action of a turbine
how much ? - well 15000 aircraft engines gained up to 18% 'free' power this way
(ok they had a lower expansion ratio as the CR was only 7:1)
NOTE - (RETRO-EDIT)
what I had in mind was that wastegate-open ...
the mgu-h turbine is mechanically contributing somewhat to driving the compressor
not that the mgu-h was contributing electrically
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:54 pm

Anyway i think this the area where Ferrari is making gains. More open wastegate time, more energyboost during open wastegate and better recovery during the lap they are using this mode.