Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Williams started the low drag philosophy. RedBull needed it to be competitive. Ferrari mastered it.
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:54 pm
Have a longer period of supercharger mode at the begin of the straight, switch to powersave/harvest mode earlier.

It is the logical thing to do, with the lower drag, giving the most advantage at the end of the straight, when at high speed. Use the ERS to balance it out and move more energy from the end tot the begin of the straight.
I don’t think that’s what the Ferrari speed traces show. They show a higher rate of deceleration before braking at the end of the straight suggesting they are charging with combined MGU-H and MGU-K.

They won’t be using any extra ERS energy at the beginning of the straight, they already have enough to do that, they will use it mid straight, perhaps from 250kph on.

Potential patterns of deployment on a straight after traction limit are:

Mercedes: e-boost - self sustain plus - self sustain - ICE only - brake

Ferrari: e-boost - self sustain plus - self sustain - harvest plus - brake

Self sustain plus (SSP)is both the H and ES feeding the K

Harvest plus (HP) is both the H and K feeding the ES. The harvest plus potentially allows a longer period of SSP.


I think this behaviour seen in this post, which confirms behaviour I observed at Hochenheim last year.
MtthsMlw wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:46 pm
Comparison between Canada and Sochi
Gaining only at high speeds:
Image

Gaining all the time..
You can see the end of straight drop off quite nicely here. On the pit straight and back straight (right before S2)
Image
via f1analisitecnica.com
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Sierra117
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:40 am
NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:54 pm
Have a longer period of supercharger mode at the begin of the straight, switch to powersave/harvest mode earlier.

It is the logical thing to do, with the lower drag, giving the most advantage at the end of the straight, when at high speed. Use the ERS to balance it out and move more energy from the end tot the begin of the straight.
I don’t think that’s what the Ferrari speed traces show. They show a higher rate of deceleration before braking at the end of the straight suggesting they are charging with combined MGU-H and MGU-K.

They won’t be using any extra ERS energy at the beginning of the straight, they already have enough to do that, they will use it mid straight, perhaps from 250kph on.

Potential patterns of deployment on a straight after traction limit are:

Mercedes: e-boost - self sustain plus - self sustain - ICE only - brake

Ferrari: e-boost - self sustain plus - self sustain - harvest plus - brake

Self sustain plus (SSP)is both the H and ES feeding the K

Harvest plus (HP) is both the H and K feeding the ES. The harvest plus potentially allows a longer period of SSP.


I think this behaviour seen in this post, which confirms behaviour I observed at Hochenheim last year.
MtthsMlw wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:46 pm
Comparison between Canada and Sochi
Gaining only at high speeds:
https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/wp-con ... 24x358.jpg

Gaining all the time..
You can see the end of straight drop off quite nicely here. On the pit straight and back straight (right before S2)
https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/wp-con ... 24x466.jpg
via f1analisitecnica.com
But shouldn't we assume that others, like Merc, have already known this? Which means they have a constraint that must be satisfied and they can't do it if they follow Ferrari's pattern.
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Sierra117 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:38 pm


But shouldn't we assume that others, like Merc, have already known this? Which means they have a constraint that must be satisfied and they can't do it if they follow Ferrari's pattern.
The technique I describe places a very high charge load on the ES 180kW or more. That’s hard to do. If Ferrari has a battery implementation advantage this is one way it might manifest itself.

Personally I don’t think use of the ERS is likely to be a silver bullet. This formula is unique in which a chain of small gains can yield a disproportionate overall gain.
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:40 am
They show a higher rate of deceleration before braking at the end of the straight suggesting they are charging with combined MGU-H and MGU-K.
I don't want to be disrespectful in any way but I think this part is wrong.
I don't think there is any connection between harvesting and braking performance. I agree with other points that you made.


IMO greater deceleration could point to 2 explanations:

- greater DF - probably not the case;

- straighter trajectory while braking, fallowed by lower minimum speed, late apex and and straighter exit trajectory with higher exit speed.

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:37 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:40 am
They show a higher rate of deceleration before braking at the end of the straight suggesting they are charging with combined MGU-H and MGU-K.
I don't want to be disrespectful in any way but I think this part is wrong.
I don't think there is any connection between harvesting and braking performance. I agree with other points that you made.


IMO greater deceleration could point to 2 explanations:

- greater DF - probably not the case;

- straighter trajectory while braking, fallowed by lower minimum speed, late apex and and straighter exit trajectory with higher exit speed.
No problem with disagreeing, maybe I didn’t make my point clearly.

I’m not saying that the harvesting is affecting braking performance. I’m saying that after they reach top speed and before they brake they harvest from the K and simultaneously. The speed drops more sharply than it does for Mercedes who I think simply switch to ICE only charging the ES from the H.

This is the same phase in which in the race they lift and coast, dropping speed before braking.

At the resolution of the trace I can’t see much difference in braking performance except, as you point out, the Ferrari gets to a lower minimum speed.
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sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:15 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:37 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:40 am
They show a higher rate of deceleration before braking at the end of the straight suggesting they are charging with combined MGU-H and MGU-K.
I don't want to be disrespectful in any way but I think this part is wrong.
I don't think there is any connection between harvesting and braking performance. I agree with other points that you made.


IMO greater deceleration could point to 2 explanations:

- greater DF - probably not the case;

- straighter trajectory while braking, fallowed by lower minimum speed, late apex and and straighter exit trajectory with higher exit speed.
No problem with disagreeing, maybe I didn’t make my point clearly.

I’m not saying that the harvesting is affecting braking performance. I’m saying that after they reach top speed and before they brake they harvest from the K and simultaneously. The speed drops more sharply than it does for Mercedes who I think simply switch to ICE only charging the ES from the H.

This is the same phase in which in the race they lift and coast, dropping speed before braking.

At the resolution of the trace I can’t see much difference in braking performance except, as you point out, the Ferrari gets to a lower minimum speed.
I'm sorry, it's my fault!
You clearly said "deceleration before breaking", and I misread it.

I should have known better not to question you! :)

As you said, graph hints that Ferrari harvest more than Mercedes before braking zone.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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“I’m saying that after they reach top speed and ‘BEFORE’ they brake they harvest from the ‘K’ ”.
So you are saying that FERRARI drivers can harvest from the ‘K’ without even touching the brake pedal.

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Sierra117
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:13 am
“I’m saying that after they reach top speed and ‘BEFORE’ they brake they harvest from the ‘K’ ”.
So you are saying that FERRARI drivers can harvest from the ‘K’ without even touching the brake pedal.
I don't see how that's a problem. Pretty simple to do with just a simple condition in code corresponding to GPS or other location marker of the car's current position.
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Nonserviam85
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:13 am
“I’m saying that after they reach top speed and ‘BEFORE’ they brake they harvest from the ‘K’ ”.
So you are saying that FERRARI drivers can harvest from the ‘K’ without even touching the brake pedal.
During coasting (i.e release the gas pedal before braking), it is perfectly feasible to harvest from the K.

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Nonserviam85 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:48 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:13 am
“I’m saying that after they reach top speed and ‘BEFORE’ they brake they harvest from the ‘K’ ”.
So you are saying that FERRARI drivers can harvest from the ‘K’ without even touching the brake pedal.
During coasting (i.e release the gas pedal before braking), it is perfectly feasible to harvest from the K.
They don’t need to coast.

When the driver demands max “throttle” the ECU decides what power output that means. There is a choice of 5*. Here’s a set of representative numbers

E-boost 712.5
SSP 682.5 (Self Sustain Plus, ICE + MGU-H + ES)
SS 625 (Self Sustain, ICE + MGU-H)
ICE 562.5 (No ERS)
SH 442.5 (ICE minus MGU-H)

Based on 50% self sustain efficiency of which 45% is ICE and 5% MGU-H.

Other numbers are available.

Control theory studies suggest that these modes are used “bang-bang”, that is they don’t use partial power versions of them.

* I have omitted Honda’s extra harvest mode. And there is another theoretical “extra power” for which I have seen no evidence of implementation.
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NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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So at the final part of the straight. Does a driver need to press the brake to engage the K braking or does it brake by itself?

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:20 pm
When the driver demands max “throttle” the ECU decides what power output that means.
and this is why we have the flashing rain light at seemingly random times
If the torque management system on the car decides to go into a fuel-save mode, the rear light will flash for a second to warn any driver behind. The thresholds are configurable but currently set for a car above 95 per cent throttle for more than a second, travelling faster than 180kph, that experiences a torque reduction of 120kW or more.

The warning system has been created because these events are controlled by the electronics rather than by the driver. If the driver decides to back off early then the situation is as it always has been. He has a responsibility to ensure another car is not close behind him. It’s as simple as that. One would normally expect the driver to check that it’s OK to back off. The warning light is there for situations not controlled by the driver.

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:47 pm
So at the final part of the straight. Does a driver need to press the brake to engage the K braking or does it brake by itself?
K harvesting as a result of deliberate braking actuation is always driver controlled. I harvesting as a result of the power strategy is controlled by the control electronics. See previous post about flashing the rain light for just this distinction.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:20 pm
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:48 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:13 am
“I’m saying that after they reach top speed and ‘BEFORE’ they brake they harvest from the ‘K’ ”.
So you are saying that FERRARI drivers can harvest from the ‘K’ without even touching the brake pedal.
During coasting (i.e release the gas pedal before braking), it is perfectly feasible to harvest from the K.
SSP 682.5 (Self Sustain Plus, ICE + MGU-H + ES)
SS 625 (Self Sustain, ICE + MGU-H)
When you say MGU-H here by what is it driven in each case?