Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Sierra117
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sierra117 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:48 am

Noob theory - charge one battery with the mguk and the other with the mguh so now you never run out of juice 🤪🤪🤪
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:33 am

Sierra117 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:48 am
Noob theory - charge one battery with the mguk and the other with the mguh so now you never run out of juice 🤪🤪🤪
You can’t. The batteries, if there are more than one, are joined together in the Energy Store and there is only ONE connection for both the K and H to the ES.
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LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by LM10 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:05 pm

https://streamable.com/0j6t6

Credits to Juzh. That's the video of Hamilton chasing down Vettel in the last laps of Suzuka. The red lights on the Ferrari blink quite often during a lap. Between turns 3 and 4, at turn 6, approaching turn 8 and turn 9, at turn 10 and eventually approaching turn 14. Is there anything we can conclude from that? Is it normal behaviour which happens on other cars as well?

MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:28 pm

LM10 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:05 pm
https://streamable.com/0j6t6

Credits to Juzh. That's the video of Hamilton chasing down Vettel in the last laps of Suzuka. The red lights on the Ferrari blink quite often during a lap. Between turns 3 and 4, at turn 6, approaching turn 8 and turn 9, at turn 10 and eventually approaching turn 14. Is there anything we can conclude from that? Is it normal behaviour which happens on other cars as well?
One thing is sure, it doesn't blink when it's important so when he needs full power.
Not on the straight (only while lifting/braking for turn 1 but not everytime) and on the run to 130R.
Depends on pre programmed ERS settings and/or use of manual ERS overwrite buttons, in Ferraris case that would be K1 or K1+ for example.
I would be surprised if only Ferrari could do that.

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by LM10 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:26 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:28 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:05 pm
https://streamable.com/0j6t6

Credits to Juzh. That's the video of Hamilton chasing down Vettel in the last laps of Suzuka. The red lights on the Ferrari blink quite often during a lap. Between turns 3 and 4, at turn 6, approaching turn 8 and turn 9, at turn 10 and eventually approaching turn 14. Is there anything we can conclude from that? Is it normal behaviour which happens on other cars as well?
One thing is sure, it doesn't blink when it's important so when he needs full power.
Not on the straight (only while lifting/braking for turn 1 but not everytime) and on the run to 130R.
Depends on pre programmed ERS settings and/or use of manual ERS overwrite buttons, in Ferraris case that would be K1 or K1+ for example.
I would be surprised if only Ferrari could do that.
Thank you for your explanation.

So does that mean that in sections when he needed full power he didn't use it, but decided to use it elsewhere?

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:25 am

LM10 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:26 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:28 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:05 pm
https://streamable.com/0j6t6

Credits to Juzh. That's the video of Hamilton chasing down Vettel in the last laps of Suzuka. The red lights on the Ferrari blink quite often during a lap. Between turns 3 and 4, at turn 6, approaching turn 8 and turn 9, at turn 10 and eventually approaching turn 14. Is there anything we can conclude from that? Is it normal behaviour which happens on other cars as well?
One thing is sure, it doesn't blink when it's important so when he needs full power.
Not on the straight (only while lifting/braking for turn 1 but not everytime) and on the run to 130R.
Depends on pre programmed ERS settings and/or use of manual ERS overwrite buttons, in Ferraris case that would be K1 or K1+ for example.
I would be surprised if only Ferrari could do that.
Thank you for your explanation.

So does that mean that in sections when he needed full power he didn't use it, but decided to use it elsewhere?
That's not really his decision, he can only demand full power when he needs it by pressing a button. He doesn't need to manually conserve power or harvest.
Obviously the more you can harvest where it's not hindering you in a battle the more margin you have to use it manually.

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by LM10 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:34 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:25 am
LM10 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:26 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:28 pm


One thing is sure, it doesn't blink when it's important so when he needs full power.
Not on the straight (only while lifting/braking for turn 1 but not everytime) and on the run to 130R.
Depends on pre programmed ERS settings and/or use of manual ERS overwrite buttons, in Ferraris case that would be K1 or K1+ for example.
I would be surprised if only Ferrari could do that.
Thank you for your explanation.

So does that mean that in sections when he needed full power he didn't use it, but decided to use it elsewhere?
That's not really his decision, he can only demand full power when he needs it by pressing a button. He doesn't need to manually conserve power or harvest.
Obviously the more you can harvest where it's not hindering you in a battle the more margin you have to use it manually.
Alright, makes sense, thank you.

atanatizante
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by atanatizante » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:32 pm

Regarding the air necessary for combustion, it`s a known fact that a turbo’s basic requirement is to make the engine’s combustion process more efficient by compressing the air before it enters the combustion chamber, which boosts the amount of oxygen being pushed through and means more of the fuel experiences complete combustion.
In other words, the more oxygen you got the better combustion is, isn`t it?

So, I have a little theory about Ferrari`s trick: how about a liquid oxygen small container which sprays certain amounts into the ICE air intake when you need the most? They could say it`s for reliability reasons like Renault did back in 2011 with that cold blowing … or maybe they have the best compressor on the grid which is running at the max. only on those particular moments …

My two cents :)
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:48 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:32 pm
... turbo’s basic requirement is to make the engine’s combustion process more efficient by compressing the air before it enters the combustion chamber, which boosts the amount of oxygen being pushed through and means more of the fuel experiences complete combustion. ..
,,, how about a liquid oxygen small container which sprays certain amounts into the ICE air intake when you need the most?
the turbo correspondingly boosts the amount of nitrogen etc - so combustion isn't improved (for a given temperature)

LOx was used in record breaking eg by Eldridge c.1925 - but it handles better as gas or in the fuel eg as nitromethane

Xwang
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Xwang » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:59 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:32 pm
Regarding the air necessary for combustion, it`s a known fact that a turbo’s basic requirement is to make the engine’s combustion process more efficient by compressing the air before it enters the combustion chamber, which boosts the amount of oxygen being pushed through and means more of the fuel experiences complete combustion.
In other words, the more oxygen you got the better combustion is, isn`t it?

So, I have a little theory about Ferrari`s trick: how about a liquid oxygen small container which sprays certain amounts into the ICE air intake when you need the most? They could say it`s for reliability reasons like Renault did back in 2011 with that cold blowing … or maybe they have the best compressor on the grid which is running at the max. only on those particular moments …

My two cents :)
It is not permitted, see below

5.14 Engine intake air :
5.14.1
With the exception of incidental leakage through joints or cooling ducts in the inlet system
(either into or out of the system), all air entering the engine must enter the bodywork through
a maximum of two inlets which are located:
a) Between the front of the cockpit entry template and a point 500mm forward of the rear
wheel centre line longitudinally.
b) No less than 200mm above the reference plane vertically.
c) On vertical cross‐sections parallel to C‐C.
Furthermore, any such inlets must be visible in their entirety when viewed from the front of
the car without the driver seated in the car and with the secondary roll structure and
associated fairing removed (see Article 15.2.6).
5.14.2
The addition of any substance other than fuel, as described in Article 5.10.3, into the air
destined for combustion is forbidden. Exhaust gas recirculation is forbidden.

atanatizante
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by atanatizante » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:17 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:48 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:32 pm
... turbo’s basic requirement is to make the engine’s combustion process more efficient by compressing the air before it enters the combustion chamber, which boosts the amount of oxygen being pushed through and means more of the fuel experiences complete combustion. ..
,,, how about a liquid oxygen small container which sprays certain amounts into the ICE air intake when you need the most?
the turbo correspondingly boosts the amount of nitrogen etc - so combustion isn't improved (for a given temperature)

LOx was used in record breaking eg by Eldridge c.1925 - but it handles better as gas or in the fuel eg as nitromethane
Ok, thanx for clarifications. So maybe a liquid nitrogen container? :) ...

In addition, I`m sorry for not being up to date but what're the latest rumours/theories regarding why Ferraris PU has such an advance to the Merc one? I mean, somebody had figured out why they accelerate faster than Merc when the car reaches ~ 230km/h?
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

Dr. Acula
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Dr. Acula » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:47 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:17 pm
Ok, thanx for clarifications. So maybe a liquid nitrogen container? :) ...

In addition, I`m sorry for not being up to date but what're the latest rumours/theories regarding why Ferraris PU has such an advance to the Merc one? I mean, somebody had figured out why they accelerate faster than Merc when the car reaches ~ 230km/h?
As Xwang already wrote, the rules don't allow anything to be added to the intake air except for fuel.

The power gain must come via the crank of the ICE. The MGU-K is to tightly regulated powerwise to make a significant difference.
That leaves us with two probabilities on the powertrain side. Either Ferrari has simply found a more efficient combustion process so they can extract directly more energy from the fuel, or they are able to use the MGU-H significantly more often to support the turbine which would reduce pumping loses and so get more power out of the ICE whenever they do that. But that leads to the question how they can harvest so much more energy than Mercedes.

Though there's also the question if the Ferrari chassis does produce less drag than the Merc.
Ferrari has probably the highest peak power output, but in combination with low drag aerodynamics, the difference in power compared to Mercedes is maybe smaller than it looks like from the outside.

I remember the GP of Spain in 2003. Ferrari introduced their new car for the year back then, before they run with a slightly modified F2002. The intresting thing was, that the F2003GA showed about 10kph higher top speeds compared to the other teams, although the engine wasn't really more powerful compared to what they did run in the F2002 in the races before. But with the F2002 they didn't had such an advantage on the straights. Well, the F2003GA was the first car with undercut sidepods...

henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:20 am

Perhaps Ferrari have improved their turbine. That would increase the MGU-H output which means that the ES would suffer less load in self sustain plus mode, and they would have more power in self sustain. It might also mean that the turbine supplies more aid to the MGU-H in e-boost again reducing the drain from the ES.

This would mean that they could, on a typical straight, run e-boost longer followed by self sustain plus longer, followed by a higher power self sustain for the rest of the straight.

This would mean similar increased acceleration from say 230kph compared with a car with inferior turbine output.

It may not be one thing but that’s one that would make a difference.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

djones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by djones » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:18 pm

There is an interesting article on Autosport that says a number of teams are now seeking clarification of certain aspects. I think there may also be an official protest at some stage.

One area seems to be Ferrari purposefully leaking oil into the intercooler.

nzjrs
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by nzjrs » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:00 pm

djones wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:18 pm
There is an interesting article on Autosport that says a number of teams are now seeking clarification of certain aspects. I think there may also be an official protest at some stage.

One area seems to be Ferrari purposefully leaking oil into the intercooler.
It's interesting to then degree that It shows rival teams do not exclusively believe the energy store / current / battery management to be the advantage.