Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
3jawchuck
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by 3jawchuck » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:47 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:35 pm
Anyone know or willing to hazard a guess who this is?

That's a pretty bold statement even as an unnamed source.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/teams-as ... ality.html
An unnamed Ferrari rival is quoted as saying: "The absurd advantage is impossible to accomplish legally, because the technology is already very well developed.

"Ferrari cheats and the FIA knows it. But it doesn't matter, because it would be a huge scandal."
Honda.

Nah I'm kidding, I wanted to play journalist and make a wild statement without supporting evidence.

If Ferrari are doing something that is deemed illegal, it is less likely they are cheating than it is them just exploiting a grey area.
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” --Ernest Hemingway

dans79
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dans79 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:54 pm

3jawchuck wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:47 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:35 pm
Anyone know or willing to hazard a guess who this is?

That's a pretty bold statement even as an unnamed source.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/teams-as ... ality.html
An unnamed Ferrari rival is quoted as saying: "The absurd advantage is impossible to accomplish legally, because the technology is already very well developed.

"Ferrari cheats and the FIA knows it. But it doesn't matter, because it would be a huge scandal."
Honda.

Nah I'm kidding, I wanted to play journalist and make a wild statement without supporting evidence.

If Ferrari are doing something that is deemed illegal, it is less likely they are cheating than it is them just exploiting a grey area.
I think the bold part is claiming the FIA knows.

Lots of teams have cheated or severely bent the rules over the years (not saying Ferrari is), but I can't think of any incidents where the fIA knew and did nothing.

santos
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by santos » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:59 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:35 pm
Anyone know or willing to hazard a guess who this is?

That's a pretty bold statement even as an unnamed source.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/teams-as ... ality.html
An unnamed Ferrari rival is quoted as saying: "The absurd advantage is impossible to accomplish legally, because the technology is already very well developed.

"Ferrari cheats and the FIA knows it. But it doesn't matter, because it would be a huge scandal."
I really don't belive that someone said that. Some could think that, but saying… i really don't belive. This is the type of comunication that doesn't make any good for your business.
If in fact, some member of a rival team said this, he must be a big coward.

Wouter
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:07 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:35 pm
Anyone know or willing to hazard a guess who this is?

That's a pretty bold statement even as an unnamed source.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/teams-as ... ality.html
An unnamed Ferrari rival is quoted as saying: "The absurd advantage is impossible to accomplish legally, because the technology is already very well developed.

"Ferrari cheats and the FIA knows it. But it doesn't matter, because it would be a huge scandal."
Your last sentence was about 2018 and the batteries. Not about this year.
Here a quote from the original article in Auto Bild.

Already in 2018 it was speculated that Ferrari forcibly switches the batteries so that they can unlock over a certain period of time more than the allowed 163 additional horsepower coming from the electric motor unit.
The FIA ​​officially declared the Ferrari system legal during the GP Monaco. Unofficially, the ABMS learned from FIA and Formula 1 circles, but one had doubts.
With the competition teams, one was even sure: "Ferrari cheats and the FIA ​​knows it. But it does not matter, because it would be a huge scandal. "

dans79
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Location: USA

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dans79 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:13 pm

Wouter wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:07 pm
Your last sentence was about 2018 and the batteries. Not about this year.
Here a quote from the original article in Auto Bild.
Just to be clear, its not my sentence, its in the article that I linked to.

Wouter
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:24 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:13 pm
Wouter wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:07 pm
Your last sentence was about 2018 and the batteries. Not about this year.
Here a quote from the original article in Auto Bild.
Just to be clear, its not my sentence, its in the article that I linked to.
That seems clear to me. You have placed a quote from that article, right ?!
I don't assume you wrote this article in Bild/Grandprix.com, do you? :)

Grandprix.com has taken things out of context by skipping pieces.

Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:27 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:59 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:38 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:21 pm


Nitrous oxide aka NOS aka NAWZ! Is much smaller volume and easier to hide. However over any gas stored up wouldn't last an entire race distance. Might be great for qualy though.
You can get small oxygen condensers, my mother had one light enough to use a shoulder strap that produced several ltr a min flow. Is this inside the rule outs side the rule or in a gray area? Could it be used for some other reason and just 'wasted' into the system?
That gave me an idea...
How does ozone do in combustion?
Ozone generators are small devices easy to integrate in an oxygen stream and works well under high pressures.

Could Ferrari be running an ozone generator?? Here is an abstract for diesle engine but likely affect SI engines too.
The effect of ozone addition to the intake air on combustion in compression ignition engines was examined using a Diesel CFR engine. The experimental results show that ozone addition improves the combustion characteristics. Addition of 500 ppm ozone, for example, increases cetane number by 2 to 4 and lowers the compression ratio of the ignition limit by 1 to 2, depending upon the kind of fuel used and the operating conditions. Regarding exhaust emissions, a small decrease in CO, hydrocarbons, and particulates and a small increase in NOx have been observed with ozone addition under the fixed operation condition.

Removing it from air then stil using it to cool, or drawing it from beneath the plank?

how much flow would be worth while? This sort of thing gives 10l a min without storing


https://www.oxygenconcentratorstore.com ... entrators/

and that is a cheap off the shelf unit. A small bottle of compressed could be 'said' to be used in something else though and just waste vented in the airstream of the intake.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

F1Krof
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by F1Krof » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:47 pm

An electrical engineer mentioned something about mapped
dual contrasting isochronic knocks.
He got into details explaining how synchronizing a pair of battery deployments on the crank shaft could potentially flatten the acceleration line but keep it for much longer and with much more efficiency, whilst potentially improving the drivebility on exits.

I couldn't understand the details he told me, but as far as I understood the batteries will not deploy on parallel, they would basically switch on and off conversely. Something on those line.

This would explain dual battery package instead of just single big one.

Does this make any sense?
Wroom wroom

atanatizante
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by atanatizante » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:15 pm

I think that there`s an almost unanimous agreement that Ferrari`s power superiority could only come from ICE, as MtthsMlw told us, and if we could think intensively and dig deeper, I think that the main differentiator factor between Ferrari and Merc ICE is just fuel, other than architecture ...

Ferrari speed/times gains on the straights are manly in qualy. In the race, they couldn`t sustain these gains except only on a few occasions when they defend or make an overtake. In the rest of the race, they have lower top speeds than qualy ones as we could see in Sochi when Leclerc couldn't manage to pass Bottas on many occasions.

And here are my arguments: from the first sentence, we could see that fuel is important in qualy (except to the fact it has a superior calorific value than other petroleum companies involved in F1) due to the fact they don`t need to save fuel and from the second sentence it`s exactly the opposite, when they need to save fuel being forced to follow the 110kg/race and 100kg/h fuel flow rules...
Last edited by atanatizante on Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by wuzak » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:16 am

atanatizante wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:15 pm
And here are my arguments: from the first sentance, we could see that fuel is important in qualy (except to the fact it has a superior calorific value than other petroleum companies involved in F1) due to the fact they don`t need to save fuel and from the second sentence it`s exactly the opposite, when they need to save fuel being forced to follow the 110kg/race and 100kg/h fuel flow rules...
Just to clarify, they need to adhere to the fuel flow limits at all times during the event.

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zibby43 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:36 am

Wouter wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:07 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:35 pm
Anyone know or willing to hazard a guess who this is?

That's a pretty bold statement even as an unnamed source.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/teams-as ... ality.html
An unnamed Ferrari rival is quoted as saying: "The absurd advantage is impossible to accomplish legally, because the technology is already very well developed.

"Ferrari cheats and the FIA knows it. But it doesn't matter, because it would be a huge scandal."
Your last sentence was about 2018 and the batteries. Not about this year.
Here a quote from the original article in Auto Bild.

Already in 2018 it was speculated that Ferrari forcibly switches the batteries so that they can unlock over a certain period of time more than the allowed 163 additional horsepower coming from the electric motor unit.
The FIA ​​officially declared the Ferrari system legal during the GP Monaco. Unofficially, the ABMS learned from FIA and Formula 1 circles, but one had doubts.
With the competition teams, one was even sure: "Ferrari cheats and the FIA ​​knows it. But it does not matter, because it would be a huge scandal. "
The article also states.

"One thing is certain: the power advantage that Ferrari has on the straights this season is enormous. The competition speaks of up to 55 hp (40 kW). Converted in times Ferrari wins on track parts with many straights up to 0.8 seconds. That's what you say, for example, Renault and Mercedes . "The advantage is absurd and legally impossible to accomplish, because the technology is already very exhausted," states a high-ranking member of a Ferrari competition team. Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto knows the allegations and holds against it: "the projection is not so large, as is claimed."

atanatizante
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by atanatizante » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:26 am

zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:36 am

...

The article also states.

"One thing is certain: the power advantage that Ferrari has on the straights this season is enormous. The competition speaks of up to 55 hp (40 kW). Converted in times Ferrari wins on track parts with many straights up to 0.8 seconds. That's what you say, for example, Renault and Mercedes. "The advantage is absurd and legally impossible to accomplish because the technology is already very exhausted," states a high-ranking member of a Ferrari competition team. Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto knows the allegations and holds against it: "the projection is not so large, as is claimed."
Due to fuel, they could gain 25-30HP on each time they are allowed by the rule, as we could see on both Renault and recently Honda side. But the other 25-30HP could be down to both being a slippery car and a more powerful MGU-H, which could harvest beyond that 80kW into a presumably 90-95kW figure and that`s a 12-15% increase, though I don`t fully understand why could not be managed to get 120kW after 6 years of continuous perfecting the technology ...

Then we should take into account that maybe Ferrari`s philosophy is more towards the qualy hence how to reach max. HP output thus their ICE consumption is something more relaxed. In contrast, Merc is all about efficiency and race pace, as Toto told us, a statement we should consider that is not the classical PR - BS ... We didn`t hear that in the race Merc drivers need to save fuel as Ferrari drivers do. In qualy it doesn`t matter for the fact that they use 2.5kg fuel per 90 sec at a 100kg/h fuel flow rate but in the race every 10kg worth 3 to 4 tenths a lap. And thus Ferrari needs to use more fuel during the race and things are getting even-steven as they say :) ...

And another factor is cooling. Merc acknowledged that 2019 car design has had a major flaw regarding this matter and their update in Germany was mainly in order to correct that. But it was not enough and this led to hampered them further regarding spec.2 and 3 PU potential gains, both regarding ICE but most of all from the fuel side which is more considerable these days (on the entire year I`ve just hear one sigle fuel 18HP gain in Hungary, had I`m not wrong). That`s why Lewis said it was a year with poor results on this area. So they couldn`t run their ICE harder coz they didn`t have the proper cooling and the main reason was they were more focused on bolting more downforce on the car. But it was too late in the season to make drastic changes and it`s something that would be surely addressed on 2020 car ...
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sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by sosic2121 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:05 pm

santos wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:55 am
I think they use a flux capacitor… it's my theory.
So that's why they are destroying their tires... =D>

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:06 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:26 am
....a more powerful MGU-H, which could harvest beyond that 80kW into a presumably 90-95kW figure and that`s a 12-15% increase, though I don`t fully understand why could not be managed to get 120kW after 6 years of continuous perfecting the technology ...
some H recovery is free of cost to crankshaft power
some isn't
H recovery can always be increased where the benefit outweighs the cost to crankshaft power
(or in principle even where it doesn't)

the rules dictate light compounding ie a high cylinder ER not a matched turbine ER and cylinder ER
so we have PUs that are recognisable as car engines

FW17
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by FW17 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:58 pm

Maybe there is an advantage in the turbo MGU H setup that they are running, with the MGU H in front of the turbo.

This may allow for MGU H to be disconnected from the turbo during the acceleration phase which would make turbo more responsive without the inertial mass of the MGU H

The anti lag could be provided by some hot blowing