Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
lio007
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Curious about about the other 36 TD's. It's a real shame they are not public, it'd be interesting if there are more chassis- or more PU-related TD's...

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F1NAC
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Didn't FIA actually clear Ferrari from this suspicion? IE Ferrari is not leaking coolant into combustion?

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izzy
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:36 pm
With some more on the way apparently :D
lol yes: "A competitor predicts: "In the next few weeks, several more TDs will be written to exclude all possible theories."

and Charles is going to have more power just from having a new engine that only has to do 2 races instead of 7, so he's going to look suspiciously faster or suspiciously slower or suspiciously the same! A fun weekend awaits us i think :lol:

hansdegit
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Sorry, nonsense from my part.
Last edited by hansdegit on Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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izzy wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:12 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:36 pm
With some more on the way apparently :D
lol yes: "A competitor predicts: "In the next few weeks, several more TDs will be written to exclude all possible theories."

and Charles is going to have more power just from having a new engine that only has to do 2 races instead of 7, so he's going to look suspiciously faster or suspiciously slower or suspiciously the same! A fun weekend awaits us i think :lol:
There won’t be any significant difference in qualifying between the older PU and the fresh one of Leclerc.

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RZS10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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F1NAC wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:52 pm
Didn't FIA actually clear Ferrari from this suspicion? IE Ferrari is not leaking coolant into combustion?
It was an unsubstantiated rumour that the FIA supposedly ran some pressure test on Ferrari's cooling system during the mexico weekend ... that never happened.

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izzy
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LM10 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:24 pm
There won’t be any significant difference in qualifying between the older PU and the fresh one of Leclerc.
yes good point, he'll be in party mode then anyway won't he, but will he and Seb be jet mode faster in Q3 Sector 3 than the Mercs and RBR's? Or not? Then in the race there'll be all those S3 times to argue about as well :D . is there a comparable all-power sector from earlier in the year? Can't quite think of one

anyway i am not calling them cheats, i hope you know. But it is interesting. Tentatively i'm feeling it's a cocktail of more than one thing, including legal but effective twin battery trickery plus some other stuff that's bit edgy and they'll have to take off, possibly the porous intercooler and a flow sensor thing either with pump pulsing or signal interference

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:16 pm
To Low is not a problem right?
There is still a fuel flow limit even at the lower rpms.

gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:13 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:42 pm
henry wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:05 am
Since there is no return for the fuel the flow the FFS sees is only the flows from the injectors. This is anything but steady with peaks when injecting and no flow when not. I would expect the peaks would be much greater than 100kg/hr and the FFS would register them, since the FFS sampling frequency is higher than likely “frequency” of injector events. There must be some process somewhere that sums the FFS samples and averages them to get the value needed for management.

So the FFS is seeing cyclic input and cyclic output. I wonder if it would be possible to trim the peaks by having minimum input coincide with maximum output.
I addressed this in an earlier post.
Of course we are talking about a very small quantity of storage (accumulation) at moderately high frequency eg at 10,500 rpm (and assuming one injection pulse per intake event)
- Fuel qty/cylinder = 0.053g
- frequency of injection events = 525 Hz

A very small accumulator on the fuel rail or even the flexibilty of the lines and fuel would be sufficient to damp these fluctuations so they were invisible to the flow sensor. AFAIK the FIA has defined what constitutes acceptable accumulation for these purposes.
Sorry. Missed it.

Is the fuel qty right? I calculated 0.096 g based on 12000rpm, 3 injection events per rpm/sec.

Edit: you are right. Redid my calc and it’s in line with your value. Apologies for doubting.

However a further point is the the fuel quantity isn’t delivered over the whole of the available time. I don’t know what proportion of a rev an injection cycle takes, or how many there are, but my assumption is that fuel quantity is delivered in a shorter period than simple calculation of the time for 1/3 of a rev. A consequence of this is that the instantaneous flow rate will be higher than the average permitted, potentially much higher. But there will also be periods where there is zero delivery.

The FFS samples at a high enough rate to mean that it will see both these very high rates and the zero rates. Consequently it will need to hand its sample numbers to a downstream process that calculates the average and checks it is compliant.

Some other issues are that firing order is not even, and that as well as the very unsteady nature of the output from the FFS the input is also potentially unsteady due the primer pump frequencies.

As you say the limited accumulator volume mean the FFS must see these variations.
My post was not clear enough. What I was trying to say is the high pressure section of the system must have sufficient accumulation to damp out the injection events which as you say would occupy only a fraction of total cycle time. Such accumulation needs to ensure that
a) the rail pressure at each injector remains constant
b) the flow at the flow meter remains constant over the time scales of interest (engine frequency).
je suis charlie

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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Also keep in mind that the high pressure pump is between the injectors and the FFM. It is highly unlikely that whatever pulses the injectors generate can travel back through a plunger positive displacement pump.

I think all the teams use slightly customized versions of the Bosch HDP pump which if I remember correctly run off a single or double lobe so can't really produce more than a couple hundred hertz..
nah pop no style

Sevach
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... o/4596445/

Changing the subject a little, this might be a tough problem for next year too.

BrunoH
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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i hope they run that think to the max, i rather see them do well so we call can have a race

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zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Sevach wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:18 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/team ... n/4597036/

So... we are back to oil?
I recently learned (and maybe it has already been discussed in this thread and I missed it) that Ferrari uses a special synthetic liquid in their cooling systems (whereas all the other teams use water).

I think I read graphene, but someone with further knowledge is more than welcome to chime in.

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atanatizante
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:45 pm
Sevach wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:18 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/team ... n/4597036/

So... we are back to oil?
I recently learned (and maybe it has already been discussed in this thread and I missed it) that Ferrari uses a special synthetic liquid in their cooling systems (whereas all the other teams use water).

I think I read graphene, but someone with further knowledge is more than welcome to chime in.
Yeah, it seems that Ferrari is using a new coolant based from the Australian FlexeGRAPH company. It`s based on using carbon structures called graphene - the toughest material made by human up to date. As a secondary benefit due to their special tubular structure, graphene a has much higher heat/thermal capacity hence a much better heat transfer. The said that: "FlexeGRAPH has developed nano-fluids with graphene as the active ingredient. FlexeGRAPH nano-fluids feature suspended graphene particles that conduct heat 10,000X better than water. This provides a significant improvement in thermal conductivity over standard liquid coolants and has applications across many industries., according to their site: https://flexegraph.com/

They also say their new coolant allows up to 60% improved heat exchange compared with market-leading materials.
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