Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:45 pm

As reported/pushed-out by Tobi Gruner.

stevesingo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by stevesingo » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:00 am

If a higher pressure than strictly required (to provide fuel to HPFP under all G loadings) lift pump were used and the pipes from sensor to HPFP were, shall we say, quite flexible, they could be inflated with additional fuel?

Are the FFS to HPFP pipework homologated/regulated, or is it just the HPFP to injector pipes which are homologated/regulated?

stevesingo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by stevesingo » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:19 am

This would indicate that the HP fuel systems are approved items.

5.10.1 The pressure of the fuel supplied to the fuel injectors may not exceed 500bar. Only approved
parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA...

Nothing in the regulations stating the Fuel Flow Sensor (FFS) to HPFP pipework is approve/homologated, however...

...this would indicate that the above idea would be illegal.

5.10.5 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow
rate or to store and recycle fuel after the measurement point is prohibited.

But not technically impossible. As fuel flow is limited to;

5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.
5.1.5 Below 10500rpm the fuel mass flow must not exceed Q (kg/h) = 0.009 N(rpm)+ 5.5.

In the case of 5.1.5, when the engine is on over run (no torque demand) it would be possible to use the intank low pressure fuel pump (LPFP) to over pressure the LPFP to HPFP lines, which if sufficiently flexible, inflate them to increase volume and therefore have an extra mass of fuel available at the HPFP when torque is demanded after a period of over run. Such as, accelerating out of a corner where prior to the corner there has been a period of over run after braking.

This would be detectable through SCU telemetry/logging, however.

subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:12 am

@stevensingo: If I remember correctly, this was already tried (by the teams) and clarified (by the FIA) as not being allowed some time back.

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zibby43 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:36 am

aran.vtec wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:59 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:16 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:49 am

and

Is the non-Ferrari team a Mercedes team (or even Mercedes themselves)? Is that what Marko was hinting at?

Or is the non-Ferrari team being used as a control to see where the differences lay?

If there is naughtiness going on in the Red and Silver teams, Red Bull and Max might both end up being champions this year after all...
It never looked like something naughty was going on with the Mercedes PU this season. If any, the Honda seems to be suspiciously powerful now. By asking the FIA for several clarifications the focus is being taken on that particular team and off themselves.
What I find interesting is that the Honda is at least on par with Mercedes now and no one raises en eyebrow. At the beginning of the season Redbull was behind Mercedes on the straights even though they had less downforce and drag. Now, with much more downforce, they’re faster than the Mercedes.
Honda have also had more upgrades this season each engine change has been an upgrade, Also Honda's current engine has allot less mileage than Merc which i would assume would be a factor.
Additionally, the Red Bull has performed well with their substantially fresher PUs in high-altitude environments such as Mexico and Brazil, 2 of the highest-altitude circuits on the calendar.

The Honda PU utilizes a larger compressor than the Mercedes unit, which performs better/can be pushed harder in the high-altitude environments. Mercedes doesn't utilize this approach because on the vast majority of circuits, it's advantageous to have smaller components/tighter packaging.

Bill
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bill » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:08 am

The Honda powerunit compressor is nestled between an oil tank and engine block it is quite small they is no room to make it big. Honda turbo has always been tiny but revolving at high speed that's what size zero means. Renault turbo from pictures I have seen is big at rear because they is ample space.

Polite
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Polite » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:45 am

Bill wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:08 am
The Honda powerunit compressor is nestled between an oil tank and engine block it is quite small they is no room to make it big. Honda turbo has always been tiny but revolving at high speed that's what size zero means. Renault turbo from pictures I have seen is big at rear because they is ample space.
u are speaking of the old Honda spec.. 2018 and 2019 are different

news from FIA: Ferrari, Alfa Romeo and RedBull ( :roll: :roll: ) are the pus under investigation

https://www.gazzetta.it/Formula-1/20-11 ... 2822.shtml

In Italy there s a rumor about Ferrari asking for a clarification on Honda... :lol:

Bill
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bill » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:59 am

No the old spec had the compressor and turbine in the v but new spec has those parts outside. They are still small nevertheless so the size zero philosophy wasn't abandoned completely but adapted.Honda still has the smallest pu of all manufacturers.

Polite
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Polite » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:04 am

Bill wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:59 am
No the old spec had the compressor and turbine in the v but new spec has those parts outside. They are still small nevertheless so the size zero philosophy wasn't abandoned completely but adapted.Honda still has the smallest pu of all manufacturers.
Honda layout is the same of Mercedes now m8.. and pls ... this is so ot

Bill
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bill » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:21 am

It's similar but the initial argument was that Honda has a big turbo and Mercedes has a small one which is preposterous . They are both small compared to Renault and Ferrari.

KeiKo403
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by KeiKo403 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:52 pm

So lets assume the FIA took the fuel parts from Vettels PU and one of the customer Ferrari PU's. They should all be Spec 3 yeah?

What happens if there are differences between the customer and manufactures PU parts?

Polite
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Polite » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:54 pm

KeiKo403 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:52 pm
So lets assume the FIA took the fuel parts from Vettels PU and one of the customer Ferrari PU's. They should all be Spec 3 yeah?

What happens if there are differences between the customer and manufactures PU parts?
what Fia took is not part of the PU.. but are parts of the fuel system so like radiators can be different on every car! Also those parts of the fuel system are always approved by FIA before racing in official events.

stevesingo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by stevesingo » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:44 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:12 am
@stevensingo: If I remember correctly, this was already tried (by the teams) and clarified (by the FIA) as not being allowed some time back.
Understood and I believe this is why the FiA came up with approved/homologated HP fuel components as a control measure. The LP components are not subject to the same scrutiny, so in theory the same trick could be used. It would still fall foul of 5.1.5 if discovered to be implemented.

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zibby43 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:19 pm

Bill wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:21 am
It's similar but the initial argument was that Honda has a big turbo and Mercedes has a small one which is preposterous . They are both small compared to Renault and Ferrari.
Mercedes engineers themselves have admitted that their TC is smaller than the Honda one. Before you go around claiming that others' statements are preposterous, you may want to catch up on current affairs.

But the reason for Honda's sudden step up is relatively simple. The Japanese manufacturer opted to increase the size of its compressor for 2019, and in doing so has gained an advantage at high-altitude races. Renault held a similar advantage last year when it had a bigger compressor, while Mercedes, which has always had a compact compressor for packaging reasons, tends to lose out.

dans79
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Location: USA

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dans79 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:04 pm

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14728 ... tra-sensor

Formula 1 teams will be required to run a second fuel-flow sensor next season as the FIA escalates its efforts to prevent the rules being exploited for performance gains.
The entire fuel flow thing just got weird!