Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
LM10
LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:59 pm

Phil wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:05 pm
LM10 wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:25 pm
On grounds of Ferrari having told that their calculations told them they didn't overfuel.
Can you find me a direct quote from someone?
Noticed that Binotto didn’t directly tell their calculations were correct, but in an indirect way.

From motorsport.com:
"It is not the first time we are doing it," he said. "This season we have been checked at least 10 times. It's not the first time and it has always been OK and today we've got a discrepancy on which we don't know the [reason]."

ncx
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:33 pm

LM10 wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:59 pm
Phil wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:05 pm
LM10 wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:25 pm
On grounds of Ferrari having told that their calculations told them they didn't overfuel.
Can you find me a direct quote from someone?
Noticed that Binotto didn’t directly tell their calculations were correct, but in an indirect way.

From motorsport.com:
"It is not the first time we are doing it," he said. "This season we have been checked at least 10 times. It's not the first time and it has always been OK and today we've got a discrepancy on which we don't know the [reason]."
From racefans.net:
“We believe that our measurements are all correct,” he [Binotto] added. “So there is one measurement which is not correct.”

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Phil
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:43 pm

What else did you expect him to say? “Yes, we purposely put more fuel and wanted to see if anyone notices”.

I think not. I also dont see a thing in those quotes that would put any weight that the procedure was faulty. Again, if there was any chance that it were, would a fine have been issued how many hours post race?

The talk about if there was a mistake in the measurement/procedure is a waste of time. It would be way more interesting to figure out what they could have been doing by declaring having less fuel than what was in there.

Question: does anyone know how the fuel flow sensor works? As in, if a car were to use more than the allowed amount and the sensor picks it up - how would the stewards be notified? Is this something that would be signaled during the race? Within seconds? Minutes? Or something that would be within a log that would be examined post race?

How exactly did it unfold when, i think Ricciardo, was disqualified?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

ncx
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:57 pm

You wanted a direct quote and I provided one. Make of it what you will. I am not vouching for anything or anybody here.

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siskue2005
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:18 am

ncx wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:57 pm
You wanted a direct quote and I provided one. Make of it what you will. I am not vouching for anything or anybody here.
No, there is no direct quote; the quote just says "So there is one measurement which is not correct.” which could very well mean that they themselves made a mistake. Nowhere there is direct quote from him blaming that the FIA's procedure is wrong or the FIA made a mistake.

And moreover there are quotes from binnotto before the race start saying this technical directive is just sporting code so they dont have to adhere to it.

All these shows there was never a mistake in measuring.... this excuse was put up by motorsports Italia with just assumptions from their side

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:25 am

Phil wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:43 pm
What else did you expect him to say? “Yes, we purposely put more fuel and wanted to see if anyone notices”.

I think not. I also dont see a thing in those quotes that would put any weight that the procedure was faulty. Again, if there was any chance that it were, would a fine have been issued how many hours post race?

The talk about if there was a mistake in the measurement/procedure is a waste of time. It would be way more interesting to figure out what they could have been doing by declaring having less fuel than what was in there.

Question: does anyone know how the fuel flow sensor works? As in, if a car were to use more than the allowed amount and the sensor picks it up - how would the stewards be notified? Is this something that would be signaled during the race? Within seconds? Minutes? Or something that would be within a log that would be examined post race?

How exactly did it unfold when, i think Ricciardo, was disqualified?
Racefans 16 March 2014 13:09. “The FIA technical representative observed through the 'telemetry during the race' that the fuel flow was too high and contacted the team. giving them the opportunity to follow his previous instructions, and reduce the fuel flow such that it was within the limit, as measured by the homologated sensor – and thus gave them the opportunity to be within compliance. The team chose not to make this correction”.

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:25 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:18 am
ncx wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:57 pm
You wanted a direct quote and I provided one. Make of it what you will. I am not vouching for anything or anybody here.
No, there is no direct quote; the quote just says "So there is one measurement which is not correct.” which could very well mean that they themselves made a mistake. Nowhere there is direct quote from him blaming that the FIA's procedure is wrong or the FIA made a mistake.

And moreover there are quotes from binnotto before the race start saying this technical directive is just sporting code so they dont have to adhere to it.

All these shows there was never a mistake in measuring.... this excuse was put up by motorsports Italia with just assumptions from their side
"We believe that our measurements are all correct." - That's a direct quote.

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Phil
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:39 am

I believe that quote originated from before the verdict, not after:

https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/01/fer ... screpancy/
Speaking before the verdict was announced, Binotto said: “I don’t think there is very much to explain. There has been a discrepancy between measurements. We are simply waiting for a decision and we don’t know much.”

“We believe that our measurements are all correct,” he added. “So there is one measurement which is not correct.”
This is the problem with selective quoting.

This quote is nothing but an official line “we believe we did everything correctly, now lets wait and see what the ruling is”. A fine then was issued, so i take it there is/was absolutely no doubt from the stewards that the discrepancy is real and accurate.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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Wouter
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:47 am

Perhaps Ferrari has measured it correctly, but in a different way from the previous times,
which could have created a difference in the end result,
which does not match the measurement of the FIA ​​that has always done it in the same way .
If you do not state that you have measured it differently, you will be fined. Maybe that fine was for that?
Just an idea, because it will always remain a mystery.

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siskue2005
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:26 am

Wouter wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:47 am
Perhaps Ferrari has measured it correctly, but in a different way from the previous times,
which could have created a difference in the end result,
which does not match the measurement of the FIA ​​that has always done it in the same way .
If you do not state that you have measured it differently, you will be fined. Maybe that fine was for that?
Just an idea, because it will always remain a mystery.
There is clear communication to the teams of how the fuel will be measured when this new Technical directive was given in February (the article below mentions this method, which was given out in February 2019)
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... s/4339766/

Teams will now be asked to declare how much fuel they are planning to put in the car for the race, and FIA technical boss Jo Bauer and his team will have the right to weigh the cars before and after the race in order to determine exactly how much fuel has been used – and how that matches up with what has been recorded by the fuel-flow meter.

The strict new procedures were outlined in a technical directive from FIA head of single seater matters Nikolas Tombazis that was circulated to all teams last Tuesday.

Henceforth teams have to declare the amount of fuel they intend to put in the car – which covers the laps to the grid, the formation lap, the race and the in-lap – at least two hours before the race start.

This amount of fuel has be in the car's tank no later than one hour before the pitlane opens, after which time no fuel chilling will be allowed.

The FIA then reserves the right to randomly check cars before the race, with the car weighed with a set of "travel wheels" marked by the FIA and with a known weight.

The team will then be asked to drain the fuel tank, with the fuel pump then run to ensure that all remaining fuel goes into the collector – and the FIA will then make sure that there is nothing left in the car.

The car will then be weighed again, and a fuel mass calculated from the difference with the earlier weight. The fuel will then be pumped back into the car, which will then be weighed for a third time, after which point the fuel hatch and QD (quick disconnect) will be sealed so no fuel can be added or removed.

Following the race the FIA can again choose cars for random fuel checks, after the usual parc ferme procedures have been carried out. The car will be weighed with the same marked travel wheels used in previous checks.

As before the team will be asked to pump out any remaining fuel, and the FIA will make sure that none remains in the car. A further weight check will be used to determine that mass of fuel that has actually been used from the laps to the grid to the in-lap. The car will be then be weighed again.

Tombazis notes that "The difference between the pre- and post-race fuel masses will be assumed to be the measured fuel mass used (which clearly includes laps to the grid, formation laps, fire-ups etc.).

"It can be compared to the integrated FFM [fuel flow meter] figures and to the fuel injectors model figures in order to provide confirmation of the validity of these readings.

"Please note that the pre-race fuel mass that gets used for this calculation is either the declared mass, or the measured mass if this has been randomly checked."

____________________________________________________________________________________
Dont tell me that Ferrari are now incompetent to understand the method the FIA uses, which has been given out in February 10 months ago.

Also Tombazis gives out furthur warnings
Tombazis has also given a very specific list of situations which may trigger further investigations, and/or the team concerned being reported to the stewards. It reads as follows:

1. If the fuel pump-out procedure differs from the declared and documented process that the team is required to communicate to the FIA in advance.


So any process difference a team has done should have communicated to the FIA! So there is no chance to have different methods for each team, they should follow the same procedure

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:06 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:26 am


The fuel will then be pumped back into the car, which will then be weighed for a third time, after which point the fuel hatch and QD (quick disconnect) will be sealed so no fuel can be added or removed.

This doesn’t say that the same quantity of fuel extracted must be returned. If Ferrari made a mistake, putting in more (or less) fuel than they had declared this might be an opportunity to rectify that.

After the race the FIA could use the rectified weight to calculate the total fuel usage and confirm that it matches the FFS. The weighed use and FFS use have been reported as matching so maybe Ferrari did correct their mistake.

If this is what happens a change to the protocol would be to insist the same quantity be returned as was extracted forcing the teams to run what they brung. IFF a team was planning to fudge the FFS they might be forced to run a heavier car without a boost in power.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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siskue2005
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:19 am

henry wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:06 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:26 am


The fuel will then be pumped back into the car, which will then be weighed for a third time, after which point the fuel hatch and QD (quick disconnect) will be sealed so no fuel can be added or removed.

This doesn’t say that the same quantity of fuel extracted must be returned. If Ferrari made a mistake, putting in more (or less) fuel than they had declared this might be an opportunity to rectify that.

After the race the FIA could use the rectified weight to calculate the total fuel usage and confirm that it matches the FFS. The weighed use and FFS use have been reported as matching so maybe Ferrari did correct their mistake.

If this is what happens a change to the protocol would be to insist the same quantity be returned as was extracted forcing the teams to run what they brung. IFF a team was planning to fudge the FFS they might be forced to run a heavier car without a boost in power.
The quote before it states this
The team will then be asked to drain the fuel tank, with the fuel pump then run to ensure that all remaining fuel goes into the collector – and the FIA will then make sure that there is nothing left in the car.

The fuel will then be pumped back into the car, which will then be weighed for a third time, after which point the fuel hatch and QD (quick disconnect) will be sealed so no fuel can be added or removed.

So it is the same fuel collected in the collector which is put back

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Wouter
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:25 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:26 am
Wouter wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:47 am
Perhaps Ferrari has measured it correctly, but in a different way from the previous times,
which could have created a difference in the end result,
which does not match the measurement of the FIA ​​that has always done it in the same way .
If you do not state that you have measured it differently, you will be fined. Maybe that fine was for that?
Just an idea, because it will always remain a mystery.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... s/4339766/

Dont tell me that Ferrari are now incompetent to understand the method the FIA uses, which has been given out in February 10 months ago.

Also Tombazis gives out furthur warnings
Tombazis has also given a very specific list of situations which may trigger further investigations, and/or the team concerned being reported to the stewards. It reads as follows:

1. If the fuel pump-out procedure differs from the declared and documented process that the team is required to communicate to the FIA in advance.

So any process difference a team has done should have communicated to the FIA! So there is no chance to have different methods for each team, they should follow the same procedure.


I am familiar with that article of 18 February 2019 on Motorsport.
I was talking about point 1.
The teams may follow a different procedure, as long as they pass that on to the FIA ​​before the race
and it is possible that Ferrari did not do that and that they were fined for it.

I have no idea if it went that way, but according to that rule it is a possibility why they have been fined.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:26 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:26 am
Wouter wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:47 am
Perhaps Ferrari has measured it correctly, but in a different way from the previous times,
which could have created a difference in the end result,
which does not match the measurement of the FIA ​​that has always done it in the same way .
If you do not state that you have measured it differently, you will be fined. Maybe that fine was for that?
Just an idea, because it will always remain a mystery.
There is clear communication to the teams of how the fuel will be measured when this new Technical directive was given in February (the article below mentions this method, which was given out in February 2019)
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... s/4339766/

Teams will now be asked to declare how much fuel they are planning to put in the car for the race, and FIA technical boss Jo Bauer and his team will have the right to weigh the cars before and after the race in order to determine exactly how much fuel has been used – and how that matches up with what has been recorded by the fuel-flow meter.

The strict new procedures were outlined in a technical directive from FIA head of single seater matters Nikolas Tombazis that was circulated to all teams last Tuesday.

Henceforth teams have to declare the amount of fuel they intend to put in the car – which covers the laps to the grid, the formation lap, the race and the in-lap – at least two hours before the race start.

This amount of fuel has be in the car's tank no later than one hour before the pitlane opens, after which time no fuel chilling will be allowed.

The FIA then reserves the right to randomly check cars before the race, with the car weighed with a set of "travel wheels" marked by the FIA and with a known weight.

The team will then be asked to drain the fuel tank, with the fuel pump then run to ensure that all remaining fuel goes into the collector – and the FIA will then make sure that there is nothing left in the car.

The car will then be weighed again, and a fuel mass calculated from the difference with the earlier weight. The fuel will then be pumped back into the car, which will then be weighed for a third time, after which point the fuel hatch and QD (quick disconnect) will be sealed so no fuel can be added or removed.

Following the race the FIA can again choose cars for random fuel checks, after the usual parc ferme procedures have been carried out. The car will be weighed with the same marked travel wheels used in previous checks.

As before the team will be asked to pump out any remaining fuel, and the FIA will make sure that none remains in the car. A further weight check will be used to determine that mass of fuel that has actually been used from the laps to the grid to the in-lap. The car will be then be weighed again.

Tombazis notes that "The difference between the pre- and post-race fuel masses will be assumed to be the measured fuel mass used (which clearly includes laps to the grid, formation laps, fire-ups etc.).

"It can be compared to the integrated FFM [fuel flow meter] figures and to the fuel injectors model figures in order to provide confirmation of the validity of these readings.

"Please note that the pre-race fuel mass that gets used for this calculation is either the declared mass, or the measured mass if this has been randomly checked."

____________________________________________________________________________________
Dont tell me that Ferrari are now incompetent to understand the method the FIA uses, which has been given out in February 10 months ago.

Also Tombazis gives out furthur warnings
Tombazis has also given a very specific list of situations which may trigger further investigations, and/or the team concerned being reported to the stewards. It reads as follows:

1. If the fuel pump-out procedure differs from the declared and documented process that the team is required to communicate to the FIA in advance.


So any process difference a team has done should have communicated to the FIA! So there is no chance to have different methods for each team, they should follow the same procedure
Nobody doubts the chance of different methods for each team. But the difference with the car 16 check was the checkers had no time left to confirm the weight registered. because car 16 could not than make it to the grid in time for the race, for this reason the FIA presented a request to the world consul to approve a change in the procedure for verification of the declared fuel mass in fuel thank before race. It means that the FIA are admitting that there was no verification and that they want to rectify that situation.

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hollus
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:33 am

hollus wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:21 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:11 pm
...Trying to think what addition would benefit the car but Ferrari would not want known, and the only thing I can think of is (say) dry ice to reduce the fuel temperature? What effect would 5kg of dry ice have on measurements of flow?...
Alternately, where else could something have been added which would presumably not be a weight penalty during the race? (assuming the Co2 would have done its cooling and sublimated before the start)
There is no way that 5 kg of dry ice go unnoticed. 5 kg of dry ice sublimate into ~2.3 cubic meters of very cold air (well, very cold gas), which must be vented out. That's the stuff used to make floor clouds in rock concerts and I work with it regularly, that car would have been literally smoking for several minutes.
Well, well, well. Here is a huge serving of humble pie for myself. I still think that there would be some tell-tales of suddenly adding 5 kg of dry ice to the tank in the grid, but actually...
...the solubility of dry ice in gasoline is high enough for this 5% to "disappear" rather than vent, possibly resulting in colder gasoline...
...plus it might even have other uses!
http://www.ilasseurope.org/ICLASS/ilass ... rs/024.pdf

Note: I am not suggesting that this is what is going on. In my opinion this is probably a lot of nothingburger.
¡Puxa Esportin!