Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:21 pm
There is no multi-pick-up systems but multi-pick -up pumps (3 or 4 are used) in the system and the current fuel system used (pressured collector pot) is not what I imagine it to be but as described by an ex-Williams engineer.
If there are multiple pick up pumps I would expect that they pick up from different places. If those pumps are not used to empty the tank there will necessarily be some additional plumbing.

You imagine the system in use is the same as described in an article describing that used by V8s in the same way I imagine the system in use now on the V6 turbos is the same as will be used in 2021. Neither of us know. And for this discussion it makes little difference.
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saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dans79 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:11 pm
hollus wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:11 pm
At the end we are all speculating here, so please, let's stop trying to put down other's evidence (which is also largely speculation).
I think a big part of the problem, is that people are quoting "evidence", but then not providing the source of that evidence for others to validate.
Yes. you are correct, its mostly individual and personal interpretation/s. some does provide the source when requested, but than another problem crops up, after being asked to provide a source and a source is provided, depending on what one would like to hear/read, the source might very well be described as 'crap'.

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hollus
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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And thus, please, let's stop trying to put down other's evidence (which is also largely speculation).

This is waaaay off topic already. And while constructive speculation might be tolerated, after all these rumors about this particular PU have been the story of the end of the season and stayed spectacularly open into the off season; simply trying to prove other people wrong and saying "no" or "cheaters" or "not cheaters" without proper arguments will be removed from now on.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong." H. L. Mencken
(¡Puxa Esportin! temporarily on hold due to you know what)

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TAG
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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"Qualifying wasn't as strong this year but still, I was qualifying front row, top three quite often, and split the Ferraris when they all of a sudden had 30bhp more than everyone.
A comment from Hamilton during the weekend's trophy awards event. You know this is stuff he's repeating that he's seen Mercedes' data on the "sudden 30bhp more". No different than what Verstappen said. We can go back and forth all we want, but Red Bull and clearly Mercedes given Hamilton's comment were pretty sure the power appeared out of nowhere and packaged with a nice estimate for us to continue the disagreements. :mrgreen:
Countdown to 91: 7 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Proud Binotto: "Ferrari has the best engine in F1"
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/binot ... 1/4612653/

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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"We have changed, by quite a lot, our power unit, in terms of architecture, the cylinder," said team principal Mattia Binotto.

"It's quite a big review just to show that here again, there is much that can be done. The change we are looking for next year is quite significant changes on the engine itself."
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... 0/4612841/

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LM10 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:54 pm
Proud Binotto: "Ferrari has the best engine in F1"
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/binot ... 1/4612653/
Without any doubt. best power and reliability of the four makes.

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siskue2005
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:59 am
LM10 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:54 pm
Proud Binotto: "Ferrari has the best engine in F1"
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/binot ... 1/4612653/
Without any doubt. best power and reliability of the four makes.
Yes, true for the 6 races after Summer break according to Lewis
"Qualifying wasn't as strong this year but still, I was qualifying front row, top three quite often, and split the Ferraris when they all of a sudden had 30bhp more than everyone."

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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siskue2005 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:10 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:59 am
Without any doubt. best power and reliability of the four makes.
Yes, true for the 6 races after Summer break according to Lewis
"Qualifying wasn't as strong this year but still, I was qualifying front row, top three quite often, and split the Ferraris when they all of a sudden had 30bhp more than everyone."
The Ferrari have had the best PU for the last two years IMO. This year though reliability went to Honda. Sure they replaced more PU elements, but that was not always due to reliability but their development philosophy for the year.

Is there an overview of the amount and reason for on track failures for 2019 somewhere?

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AMG.Tzan
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hmm, Ferrari doing an engine overhaul while having the best engine already! Mercedes doing the same for 2020 IIRC??

Most likely they are getting ready for the engine freeze after 2021 or 2022...if it goes ahead really! So they want to have an advantage by then and with today's engines as we saw this year they don't have an advantage since Honda and Renault with some more development will be on par with them!

How much more powerful can these engines get though?? :o
"The only rule is there are no rules" - Aristotle Onassis

Dr. Acula
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:22 pm
Hmm, Ferrari doing an engine overhaul while having the best engine already! Mercedes doing the same for 2020 IIRC??

Most likely they are getting ready for the engine freeze after 2021 or 2022...if it goes ahead really! So they want to have an advantage by then and with today's engines as we saw this year they don't have an advantage since Honda and Renault with some more development will be on par with them!

How much more powerful can these engines get though?? :o
You have to look at the PU as one big package. Similar to the aerodynamics, you can't just improve one end and the job is done because the change you did may influences other things.
For instance, if they improve combustion efficiency, it also means they lower the energy content of the exhaust gases and that can be a double edged sword. Because now they would have less energy available for the MGU-H. This would require a redesign of the turbine. If the new turbine has the highest efficiency at a different rpm than its predecessor it also means you would need a revised compressor to make up for this. So basically an improvement in combustion efficiency can also require a completly new turbocharger just as a side effect.
So when they say they make a complete overhaul, it doesn't has to mean they will have a huge improvement in overall power. They may have to change the whole Power Unit just to make the core improvement worth it.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Dr. Acula wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:05 pm
You have to look at the PU as one big package.....
.... if they improve combustion efficiency, it also means they lower the energy content of the exhaust gases and that can be a double edged sword. Because now they would have less energy available for the MGU-H. This would require a redesign of the turbine. If the new turbine has the highest efficiency at a different rpm than its predecessor it also means you would need a revised compressor to make up for this. So basically an improvement in combustion efficiency can also require a completly new turbocharger just as a side effect.....
improved combustion efficiency is not the correct descriptor for this scenario
improved thermal efficiency is the correct descriptor for this scenario
(importantly, posters often seem to make this misattribution)

thermal efficiency is the % of the heat liberated in-cylinder that is converted to work in-cylinder (maybe 60%)
combustion efficiency is the % of fuel supplied that is burnt in-cylinder (maybe 95%)

improved combustion efficiency increases heat liberated in-cylinder ....
but c. 30% of this increased heat goes to exhaust - so slightly raising (not lowering) the energy content of the exhaust

ok the F1 engine has 2 expansion stages (major and minor) and similarly 2 compression stages
ie (some of) the fuel unburned in-cylinder burns in the exhaust upstream of the turbine

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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I've had a few interesting chats with engineers involved in F1 and I think I have finally managed to piece together a coherent story (notice the use of he word 'story').

As I understand it has been known even since the previous season that the fuel flow meters could be tricked into reading low using various methods such as pre-conditioning the flow in a certain manner, creating thermal gradients across the sensor or aliasing the sampling signal. To prevent this, the FIA together with the sensor supplier (I was originally told this was sentronics as I've shared on the forum but I have also heard of GILL controls from a different source) developed a functionality that integrates the measurements to calculate the total mass flow over a race distance. This can then be compared to the fuel mass declared by the team at the start of the race and the fuel mass left in the car after the race and is an effective safeguard against any FFM tricks.

However, just before the Brazil race, Mercedes and their fuel systems expert (interestingly an ex-Ferrari frenchman) summoned the FIA and presented a few ways of also circumventing the FFM total mass safeguard. I am told they showed the FIA that a pressure release valve or a tuned orifice located after the sensor could be used to return fuel to the tank at part load (eg. when the fuel flow would have been below 100 kg/h) in effect 'counting' fuel that wasn't being burned to compensate for a FFM that was reading lower than the actual flow rate. FIA's response was to confiscate Ferrari's fuel system after the race. No one I've talked to could say what the outcome of FIA's investigation was but this certainly puts the Abu Dhabi fuel mass declaration error in a very different light.

I am also told that, while not directly accusing Ferrari of cheating, Andy Cowell declared in the last post-race debrief that they are expecting Ferrari to take a significant step back for 2020 and they now consider RBR Honda their main competitor for the next season.
How much TQ does it make though?

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Would be interesting to know what the expectation of Andy Cowell is based on. If Ferrari actually takes a significant step back PU wise in 2020, then there must be a big hurricane going on inside the team at the moment. Because with the incoming freezing of the PU development, they could as well forget about being competitive for an undefined period of time.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LM10 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:14 pm
Would be interesting to know what the expectation of Andy Cowell is based on. If Ferrari actually takes a significant step back PU wise in 2020, then there must be a big hurricane going on inside the team at the moment. Because with the incoming freezing of the PU development, they could as well forget about being competitive for an undefined period of time.
Coming from a team that won both championships with ease on an engine that is supposedly down some 40hp in Quali..
Ferrari proved they can produce a competitive car in 2017 without all the engine drama involved.
Any assumptions on how well a car will perform next season are far-fetched.