Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:54 am
If your educated guess based on the fact that the use of steel liners separate from the block casting is the best solution in terms of bore distortion and friction reduction, it must have been the same best solution when F1 engine manufacturers abandoned the use of steel liners even with engines revving past the 20k RPM mark.
No, not at all.
N/A engines were just a little over 100 bar peak cylinder pressure and had to do fewer races. They were also running relatively rich and considerably cooler.

Current engines are probably 3 times the cylinder pressure, hotter and have to do more races. The stud pretension (which is the what drives high order bore distortion) is also increased in line with peak combustion loads.

I will re-iterate that from experience with engins of lower specific output and similar life that nothing you can put on the aluminium will stay there. Yes there are DLC coatings with lower process temperature that can be applied but they will have lower adhesion and lower hardness.
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saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:39 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:54 am
If your educated guess based on the fact that the use of steel liners separate from the block casting is the best solution in terms of bore distortion and friction reduction, it must have been the same best solution when F1 engine manufacturers abandoned the use of steel liners even with engines revving past the 20k RPM mark.
Are the engine materials regulations and limits on what can be used the same now as then? Were they using something then that is no longer allowed?
As to the use of material I don’t recon there being any differences between then and now. Could be some related to coating thicknesses.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:45 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:54 am
If your educated guess based on the fact that the use of steel liners separate from the block casting is the best solution in terms of bore distortion and friction reduction, it must have been the same best solution when F1 engine manufacturers abandoned the use of steel liners even with engines revving past the 20k RPM mark.
No, not at all.
N/A engines were just a little over 100 bar peak cylinder pressure and had to do fewer races. They were also running relatively rich and considerably cooler.

Current engines are probably 3 times the cylinder pressure, hotter and have to do more races. The stud pretension (which is the what drives high order bore distortion) is also increased in line with peak combustion loads.

I will re-iterate that from experience with engins of lower specific output and similar life that nothing you can put on the aluminium will stay there. Yes there are DLC coatings with lower process temperature that can be applied but they will have lower adhesion and lower hardness.
So who of the four manufacturers has reverted back to using steel cylinder liners, or have all four did so because of the higher combustion pressures?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:39 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:54 am
If your educated guess based on the fact that the use of steel liners separate from the block casting is the best solution in terms of bore distortion and friction reduction, it must have been the same best solution when F1 engine manufacturers abandoned the use of steel liners even with engines revving past the 20k RPM mark.
Are the engine materials regulations and limits on what can be used the same now as then? Were they using something then that is no longer allowed?
abandoning discrete liners ? ....
would help bore increase/valve increase/stroke shortening/rpm increase without the disruption of increasing cylinder centres
life was unimportant
then came the engine freeze

now we require long engine life - and so the rules dictate dimensions that force a conservative design configuration

Zynerji
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Are any of the manufacturers following BMW's lead from the V8 era and making the head and the cylinders a single piece?

With what SavSat has said, the head gaskets/studs seem to be the weak spot.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:56 am
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:45 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:54 am
If your educated guess based on the fact that the use of steel liners separate from the block casting is the best solution in terms of bore distortion and friction reduction, it must have been the same best solution when F1 engine manufacturers abandoned the use of steel liners even with engines revving past the 20k RPM mark.
No, not at all.
N/A engines were just a little over 100 bar peak cylinder pressure and had to do fewer races. They were also running relatively rich and considerably cooler.

Current engines are probably 3 times the cylinder pressure, hotter and have to do more races. The stud pretension (which is the what drives high order bore distortion) is also increased in line with peak combustion loads.

I will re-iterate that from experience with engins of lower specific output and similar life that nothing you can put on the aluminium will stay there. Yes there are DLC coatings with lower process temperature that can be applied but they will have lower adhesion and lower hardness.
So who of the four manufacturers has reverted back to using steel cylinder liners, or have all four did so because of the higher combustion pressures?
Is there anything else than using steel liners in this formula?!

For me Steel is no brainer ever since the regulations came out.

Are there people out there that believe anything else would be used in an 850hp 1.6 liter engine?! I need some of that purple kush.

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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:37 pm
Are any of the manufacturers following BMW's lead from the V8 era and making the head and the cylinders a single piece?

With what SavSat has said, the head gaskets/studs seem to be the weak spot.
Yes, mechanically BMW's approach is much more robust however it drastically limits the valve size (length and dia) and valve angles that can be assembled.

If you look at published data for V8 engines of that period BMW's 750 hp output was quite modest compared to Toyota's 760 and Cosworth's 756 in 2006. Both Honda and Cosworth reached 772 hp with further development.

At the time it was speculated that the deficit was due to compromised port shape as they could not fit long enough valves.

From what I've seen so far I believe all 4 manufacturers appear to use conventional head/block joints.
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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Funnily, while trying to find the Cossy V8 power posted earlier I found an article with Mahle's Fred Turk discussing potential liner tech for F1 V6 (back in 2013) and he seemed to think aluminium bores could work too. Went as far as suggesting that they were experimenting with using Nikasil as an adhesion layer for a better coating.
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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:56 pm
Funnily, while trying to find the Cossy V8 power posted earlier I found an article with Mahle's Fred Turk discussing potential liner tech for F1 V6 (back in 2013) and he seemed to think aluminium bores could work too. Went as far as suggesting that they were experimenting with using Nikasil as an adhesion layer for a better coating.
FRM for the win! Let's you use aluminum sleeves with better heat dissipation, very resistant to cracking.
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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I was looking up nikasil on the mahle website when I came across this describing the SF90...
MAHLE Motorsport in Formula 1.
The top tier of motorsport and MAHLE Motorsport are made for each other. Both have maximum performance in their genes, both represent the peak of what is technically feasible. For over 45 years, we have been pushing technological boundaries with Scuderia Ferrari. These days, as technology partner, we supply the iconic team with components such as pistons, as well as innovative technologies such as the lean-burn combustion system MAHLE Jet Ignition®.

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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:36 am
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:56 pm
Funnily, while trying to find the Cossy V8 power posted earlier I found an article with Mahle's Fred Turk discussing potential liner tech for F1 V6 (back in 2013) and he seemed to think aluminium bores could work too. Went as far as suggesting that they were experimenting with using Nikasil as an adhesion layer for a better coating.
FRM for the win! Let's you use aluminum sleeves with better heat dissipation, very resistant to cracking.
If FRM was any good Honda would have used it in F1. Instead they too went with good old Nikasil.
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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:00 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:36 am
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:56 pm
Funnily, while trying to find the Cossy V8 power posted earlier I found an article with Mahle's Fred Turk discussing potential liner tech for F1 V6 (back in 2013) and he seemed to think aluminium bores could work too. Went as far as suggesting that they were experimenting with using Nikasil as an adhesion layer for a better coating.
FRM for the win! Let's you use aluminum sleeves with better heat dissipation, very resistant to cracking.
If FRM was any good Honda would have used it in F1. Instead they too went with good old Nikasil.
Maybe it's a weight thing, as FRM used by Honda used a separate sleeve cast into the cylinder around .7mm thick. Whereas good ol' Nikasil can be spray deposited on machined bore. No "sacrificial" sleeve and 1/3rd of the thickness.

I guess it's a tradeoff because you'll need to redesign the water jackets since Nikasil isn't as good as FRM is at transferring heat. If the car is carrying a few CC more coolant will that weight disadvantage be a better compromise than a heavier block with better heat dissipation.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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There's no thermal disadvantage with Nikasil, not sure where that is coming from.

At 0.1 mm typical thickness there is virtually no increase in thermal resistance.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Plasma spray coatings on aluminum work well to reduce friction and hold oil. But can they really prevent distortion at those extreme cylinder pressures? (more than 500hp per liter in F1)

Is just a gut feeling that F1 is using steel with a coating (chrome ceramic coated?) because is not that much more weight but whole lot security. I could be wrong though.. The other closest engine would be the Porsche 919? Trying to think of turbocharged high hp/liter engine for endurance...

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Distortion will be a function of the underlying structure. The coating has little effect.

Weight for weight aluminium will distort less than steel.
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