Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
izzy
69
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:06 am
300 is the possible bore surface temperature from @mudflap, also the boiling point of oil, and then i was taking coolant temperature as pure water boiling point at 6 bar pressure being 160, so a gradient across the bore structure of 140. that's a great paper you linked, we can see lots of scope for using AM to enhance the cooling, with more smaller ways and perhaps no empty galleries any more but all foam or lattice type structures, much more compact
Road car manufacturers have been using AM to make sand cores for casting. Likley in f1 too.

Not satisfied with that method?
[/quote]
Yes i remember you saying, it cool but would Mattia be satisfied? in that paper you linked, for just one example, they talk about a 3mm bridge between the cylinders, that with AM they can make porous, have cooling channels in or whatever. They can make it much wider than 3mm if they want, with being able to flow coolant through it

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
537
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

where does the 160 deg coolant temperature come from ?

I thought rules on the coolant system didn't allow this sort of temperature

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
470
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

izzy wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:58 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:06 am
300 is the possible bore surface temperature from @mudflap, also the boiling point of oil, and then i was taking coolant temperature as pure water boiling point at 6 bar pressure being 160, so a gradient across the bore structure of 140. that's a great paper you linked, we can see lots of scope for using AM to enhance the cooling, with more smaller ways and perhaps no empty galleries any more but all foam or lattice type structures, much more compact
Road car manufacturers have been using AM to make sand cores for casting. Likley in f1 too.

Not satisfied with that method?
Yes i remember you saying, it cool but would Mattia be satisfied? in that paper you linked, for just one example, they talk about a 3mm bridge between the cylinders, that with AM they can make porous, have cooling channels in or whatever. They can make it much wider than 3mm if they want, with being able to flow coolant through it
[/quote]

The engineers would have weighed up the pros and cons. I certainly know that 3D printing metal takes really long, and one has to consider the material proprties, detailand surface finisb that Ferrari's current 3D printing capabilities can achieve. The benefits of going to a more contorted design beyond what is presently done by sand casting may not be worth it maybe that detail is very high already.

I only have another video of factory engine 3d printing. This one is for the SF90. They do casting cores and some external engine parts. But otherwise very traditional. I also notice the cylinder sleeve is Iron inserts.


User avatar
izzy
69
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:17 pm
where does the 160 deg coolant temperature come from ?

I thought rules on the coolant system didn't allow this sort of temperature
yes now you make me look article 7.4 says there has to be a pressure relief valve at 3.75 bar, which is 141C with pure water

User avatar
izzy
69
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm
The engineers would have weighed up the pros and cons. I certainly know that 3D printing metal takes really long, and one has to consider the material proprties, detailand surface finisb that Ferrari's current 3D printing capabilities can achieve. The benefits of going to a more contorted design beyond what is presently done by sand casting may not be worth it maybe that detail is very high already.

I only have another video of factory engine 3d printing. This one is for the SF90. They do casting cores and some external engine parts. But otherwise very traditional. I also notice the cylinder sleeve is Iron inserts.

https://youtu.be/0aa3NSemAf4
iron inserts? why, do you suppose? Temperature? Anyway very nice video thanks, and with that ominous 'coming to get you' music :D

yes I am only guessing wildly obviously, on the basis that this IS Ferrari who could easily be 2 years ahead of what's in the public domain, with much faster machines and who knows, certainly hybrid, but yes still lots of machining as well

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
470
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

izzy wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:12 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm
The engineers would have weighed up the pros and cons. I certainly know that 3D printing metal takes really long, and one has to consider the material proprties, detailand surface finisb that Ferrari's current 3D printing capabilities can achieve. The benefits of going to a more contorted design beyond what is presently done by sand casting may not be worth it maybe that detail is very high already.

I only have another video of factory engine 3d printing. This one is for the SF90. They do casting cores and some external engine parts. But otherwise very traditional. I also notice the cylinder sleeve is Iron inserts.

https://youtu.be/0aa3NSemAf4
iron inserts? why, do you suppose? Temperature? Anyway very nice video thanks, and with that ominous 'coming to get you' music :D

yes I am only guessing wildly obviously, on the basis that this IS Ferrari who could easily be 2 years ahead of what's in the public domain, with much faster machines and who knows, certainly hybrid, but yes still lots of machining as well
You can see them at 1:53 in the video. Closed deck.
Iron liners maybe because of reliability and ease of reconditioning.

User avatar
godlameroso
428
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

One way to use 3d printing is in the cooling system. Radiators don't operate at high pressures, so AM may work well in designing complex radiator shapes to save space or improve efficiency.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Zynerji
Zynerji
82
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

I thought radiators ran at 5 Bar?

User avatar
godlameroso
428
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:58 pm
I thought radiators ran at 5 Bar?
I mean if they're running at 150c maybe they are to keep water from boiling over, but if they're ~110-120 then they don't need to run such high pressure.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Zynerji
Zynerji
82
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:39 am
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:58 pm
I thought radiators ran at 5 Bar?
I mean if they're running at 150c maybe they are to keep water from boiling over, but if they're ~110-120 then they don't need to run such high pressure.
Obviously, but I thought it was discussed that higher water temps with better heat rejecting radiators and 5 bar pressures kept the total water volume down to the minimum and saved lots of weight.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
470
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:54 pm
One way to use 3d printing is in the cooling system. Radiators don't operate at high pressures, so AM may work well in designing complex radiator shapes to save space or improve efficiency.
Complex shapes would increase drag and can actually hurt heat transfer at high speeds because of reduced flow and fouling.

Other simpler shapes like twisted tube or corrugated tube.. U dont need 3D printing.

3D printing existed for decades now.. Why all of a sudden it is the answer to all of life's problems? Lol

gruntguru
gruntguru
462
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

3d printing is a lot different today than it was - even one decade ago.
je suis charlie

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
470
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:30 am
3d printing is a lot different today than it was - even one decade ago.
I think it is normal development rate compared to other manufacturing technologies. We should expect these applications. Just the standard 3D printed parts that we've been seeing for years (at least what the teams choose to reveal to us). I can't say I'm excited, because it was always there.

McLaren had a good feature in 2017:

https://www.mclaren.com/racing/partners ... rformance/

Another article on how it is used in casting. This article was posted on this website maybe more than ten years ago?

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b48e/6 ... 218694.pdf

User avatar
Sierra117
47
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:19 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:05 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:30 am
3d printing is a lot different today than it was - even one decade ago.
I think it is normal development rate compared to other manufacturing technologies. We should expect these applications. Just the standard 3D printed parts that we've been seeing for years (at least what the teams choose to reveal to us). I can't say I'm excited, because it was always there.

McLaren had a good feature in 2017:

https://www.mclaren.com/racing/partners ... rformance/

Another article on how it is used in casting. This article was posted on this website maybe more than ten years ago?

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b48e/6 ... 218694.pdf
It's probably because the general idea of 3d printing seems to be associated with something new and people aren't aware that it's been around for decades.
NIKI LAUDANZ SolidarityCubolligraphy | Instagram | Facebook
#Aerogorn & #Flowramir

Zynerji
Zynerji
82
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

I saw a video of William's factory from like 2002, and they called theirs a "rapid prototyping machine".