Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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RZS10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Polite wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:47 pm
ferrari gives informations to better understand whats going on in their PU [...] Those infos will be the base knowledge to test everyother PU.
Why would they need any knowledge from Ferrari to test other engines if the knowledge would relate to legal solutions? That doesn't make any sense at all - the other way around however ...

I think someone mentioned this before but y'all should read up on what a DPA/NPA is

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RZS10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:56 pm
Polite wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:47 pm
ferrari gives informations to better understand whats going on in their PU [...] Those infos will be the base knowledge to test everyother PU.
Why would they need any knowledge from Ferrari to test other engines if the knowledge would relate to legal solutions? That doesn't make any sense at all - the other way around however ...

I think someone mentioned this before but y'all should read up on what a DPA/NPA is
In 2018, when Ferrari's ERS was investigated by the FIA, Charlie Whiting told that they needed the help of Ferrari engineers to fully understand how their system worked and eventually they came to the conclusion that everything with what Ferrari was doing was legal.

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RZS10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Or they never made the prior agreement public :^)

Joking aside ... back then they straight up claimed "it's legal" and installed additional sensors on all cars iirc ... very different to the current situation

timbo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RZS10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:07 pm
Or they never made the prior agreement public :^)

Joking aside ... back then they straight up claimed "it's legal" and installed additional sensors on all cars iirc ... very different to the current situation
Not so much
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fuel ... 0/4601058/
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14817 ... r-outlined

There are changes to the way FIA monitors fuel flow.

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RZS10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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the key difference is the affirmation of legality back then, the changes mentioned in those articles can just as well have to do with ideas presented by teams in their requests to the FIA, stuff that might not even have been on Ferrari's engine

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One and Only
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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supermarine wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:13 pm
The annoying thing about the way this has been handled is that the really interesting technical details will never be known. I would love to know how Ferrari were doing what they were doing and how much extra fuel they were able to get into the engine than was legal as a result.
Does the 4.88kg anomaly in LeClerc's fuel load at Abu Dhabi tell us anything about the latter? Being really simplistic about it, if we assume they should have had about 100kg of fuel in the car does that mean Ferrari were using around 5% extra than they were admitting to? If so, was the performance advantage of the Ferrari PU we were seeing consistent with fuel flow rate of around 105kg/hr? Anyone have any thoughts?
I don't think there was ever more than 100kg of fuel in LeClerc's car. Aa far as I can remember discrepancy was from 90 to 95 or something like that. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can have more fuel in the car. You just can't burn more than 100kg/hr.

Questions for tech savvy people who know the rules: Is it legal/possible to get fuel mixture (very poor with fuel) into the combustion chamber, but not burn it during off throttle, then store it somewhere else and return to engine via turbo during throttle phase (early throttle phase)? It is not stored anywhere before injectors. What are the rules for fuel after it passes trough injectors? I have really basic knowledge of ICE and turbo so don't be harsh with replies :)
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

zokipirlo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Jip wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:12 pm
Polite wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:24 pm
Jip wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:05 pm

Why would Ferrari settle when they have a legal car? That doesn't make any sense, and also look at last year. From the moment a TD was issued, Ferrari had a significant loss of pace, and not just for one race but for the remainder of the season. What is wrong about this is that the FIA doesn't give any information. Last year, the whole paddock was full with question about this, and the FIA still kept their mouth shut. Now they are doing the same thing, and giving us no explanation what it is they 'settled' and what the evidence is the FIA has. IF Ferrari didn't do anything wrong, why not directly state so in the statement? The FIA would have done that if that was the case, but they didn't.
-"Why would Ferrari settle when they have a legal car?" - maybe to prevent tech infos to become public? 8)

-"From the moment a TD was issued, Ferrari had a significant loss of pace" - this is proven to be false.

-"the FIA still kept their mouth shut" - FIA gives informations only in case of illegality.. otherwise they would brake the tech patents. (which is property of the team..) (example: blowing rims 2018.. they were found legal and FIA didnt give any other informations to competitors!)

-"IF Ferrari didn't do anything wrong, why not directly state so in the statement" - FIA states only for illegal tools, not for legal tools.
Do you have an explanation then why Ferrari suddenly had a big pace deficit as soon as a TD was issued, and before that really had one of the best cars on the grid? And why would there be a settlement, if there was nothing wrong with the engine. If that was the case, the FIA wouldn't have settled anything and as you say, we wouldn't hear anything of it. So I really don't understand that people say Ferrari did nothing wrong, we still don't know what they exactly did wrong, but that's for the FIA to say.
Season was lost already. Second or third place doesn't matter. Maybe they just detune engine a little so other teams will shut up. Who knows.

JPBD1990
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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V interesting possibility re: ‘settlement’

https://www.racefans.net/2020/03/02/why ... ower-unit/

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Sieper
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zokipirlo wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:50 pm
Jip wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:12 pm
Polite wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:24 pm


-"Why would Ferrari settle when they have a legal car?" - maybe to prevent tech infos to become public? 8)

-"From the moment a TD was issued, Ferrari had a significant loss of pace" - this is proven to be false.

-"the FIA still kept their mouth shut" - FIA gives informations only in case of illegality.. otherwise they would brake the tech patents. (which is property of the team..) (example: blowing rims 2018.. they were found legal and FIA didnt give any other informations to competitors!)

-"IF Ferrari didn't do anything wrong, why not directly state so in the statement" - FIA states only for illegal tools, not for legal tools.
Do you have an explanation then why Ferrari suddenly had a big pace deficit as soon as a TD was issued, and before that really had one of the best cars on the grid? And why would there be a settlement, if there was nothing wrong with the engine. If that was the case, the FIA wouldn't have settled anything and as you say, we wouldn't hear anything of it. So I really don't understand that people say Ferrari did nothing wrong, we still don't know what they exactly did wrong, but that's for the FIA to say.
Season was lost already. Second or third place doesn't matter. Maybe they just detune engine a little so other teams will shut up. Who knows.
And then overfuel by 4.4kg effectively putting the nail in the coffin. That makes no sense.

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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JPBD1990 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:20 pm
V interesting possibility re: ‘settlement’

https://www.racefans.net/2020/03/02/why ... ower-unit/
Let's consider this is the case. Why would it be of importance for other teams not to find out what Ferrari has been up to, once the loophole is closed by the FIA? The way I understand it is that Ferrari needed to tell the FIA their secrets because they still couldn't monitor what was going on - this way they will be able to close the loophole. But once this happened, how do Ferrari take advantage of it by keeping their secret to themselves and the FIA?

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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JPBD1990 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:20 pm
V interesting possibility re: ‘settlement’

https://www.racefans.net/2020/03/02/why ... ower-unit/
That seems to be the most plausible explanation I've read to date on the subject.

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:20 pm
JPBD1990 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:20 pm
V interesting possibility re: ‘settlement’

https://www.racefans.net/2020/03/02/why ... ower-unit/
Let's consider this is the case. Why would it be of importance for other teams not to find out what Ferrari has been up to, once the loophole is closed by the FIA? The way I understand it is that Ferrari needed to tell the FIA their secrets because they still couldn't monitor what was going on - this way they will be able to close the loophole. But once this happened, how do Ferrari take advantage of it by keeping their secret to themselves and the FIA?
I think it would be to avoid 'prosecution' in case the FIA eventually :lol: figure out what was going on. It was a safety net for Ferrari and a reasonable one at that.

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:29 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:20 pm
JPBD1990 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:20 pm
V interesting possibility re: ‘settlement’

https://www.racefans.net/2020/03/02/why ... ower-unit/
Let's consider this is the case. Why would it be of importance for other teams not to find out what Ferrari has been up to, once the loophole is closed by the FIA? The way I understand it is that Ferrari needed to tell the FIA their secrets because they still couldn't monitor what was going on - this way they will be able to close the loophole. But once this happened, how do Ferrari take advantage of it by keeping their secret to themselves and the FIA?
I think it would be to avoid 'prosecution' in case the FIA eventually :lol: figure out what was going on. It was a safety net for Ferrari and a reasonable one at that.
But the thing is that the FIA doesn't need to figure out what was going on when it's Ferrari telling them.

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RZS10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:20 pm
JPBD1990 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:20 pm
V interesting possibility re: ‘settlement’

https://www.racefans.net/2020/03/02/why ... ower-unit/
Let's consider this is the case. Why would it be of importance for other teams not to find out what Ferrari has been up to, once the loophole is closed by the FIA? The way I understand it is that Ferrari needed to tell the FIA their secrets because they still couldn't monitor what was going on - this way they will be able to close the loophole. But once this happened, how do Ferrari take advantage of it by keeping their secret to themselves and the FIA?
Yea ... the article is implying that Ferrari would give up a legal (or rather not yet illegal) impossible to prove advantage in order to help the FIA make it illegal, thus stopping the others from copying what they did? On what planet does that make any sense?

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bluechris
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LM10 wrote:
subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:29 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:20 pm
Let's consider this is the case. Why would it be of importance for other teams not to find out what Ferrari has been up to, once the loophole is closed by the FIA? The way I understand it is that Ferrari needed to tell the FIA their secrets because they still couldn't monitor what was going on - this way they will be able to close the loophole. But once this happened, how do Ferrari take advantage of it by keeping their secret to themselves and the FIA?
I think it would be to avoid 'prosecution' in case the FIA eventually figure out what was going on. It was a safety net for Ferrari and a reasonable one at that.
But the thing is that the FIA doesn't need to figure out what was going on when it's Ferrari telling them.
Yeah the caveat is that Ferrari told them what they was doing and for this reason they wanted a non disclosure agreement between the 2 parties.