Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
523
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

timbo wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:35 am
.....the description is not a "blacklist", but rather a "white list" of compounds that are permitted. Only 1% of compounds outside of the list are permitted....
it's not a list of compounds that are permitted

it's a list of broad chemical classification 'family' names each of which covers typically hundreds of different compounds
just as road fuel contains worldwide c. 10000 different compounds most of which haven't been isolated and evaluated as fuels

eg isooctane and octane are regardable as chemically identical compounds but are wildly different as fuels
isooctane has an octane number of 100 but octane has an octane number of minus 6
similarly with isooctane and triptane - triptane's ON is off the clock

timbo
timbo
116
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:14 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:08 pm
timbo wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:35 am
.....the description is not a "blacklist", but rather a "white list" of compounds that are permitted. Only 1% of compounds outside of the list are permitted....
it's not a list of compounds that are permitted

it's a list of broad chemical classification 'family' names each of which covers typically hundreds of different compounds
just as road fuel contains worldwide c. 10000 different compounds most of which haven't been isolated and evaluated as fuels

eg isooctane and octane are regardable as chemically identical compounds but are wildly different as fuels
isooctane has an octane number of 100 but octane has an octane number of minus 6
similarly with isooctane and triptane - triptane's ON is off the clock
Well, yes, it can be called a white list of groups of compounds, but the point is in the fuel, or blend of fuels which follow the description in the rules, there is (virtually) no possibility for "funny" chemistry.

By "funny" I mean chemical reactions between components of, say, fuel blend A and fuel blend B, which would produce new compounds (akin to how bi-component chemical weapons work).

The compound families described in the list are not very reactive, and there is very little space (only 5 mg/L of metals) for the inclusion of catalyst.
Last edited by timbo on Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xavier
xavier
0
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 1:44 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

What if they had two fuels that don't mix (like oil and water don't mix), with a higher density fuel at the bottom of the tank. Since the density is higher, it tricks the FFM calibrated for the lighter fuel and it allows more mass flow. The heavier fuel gets burned first and the lighter fuel remains for inspection.

timbo
timbo
116
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:14 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

xavier wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:07 pm
What if they had two fuels that don't mix (like oil and water don't mix), with a higher density fuel at the bottom of the tank. Since the density is higher, it tricks the FFM calibrated for the lighter fuel and it allows more mass flow. The heavier fuel gets burned first and the lighter fuel remains for inspection.
Pretty much impossible within the chemistry permitted by the rules. Out of liquids immiscible with petrol, only methanol makes any sense, but the amount of methanol one can add before exceeding the permitted oxygen content in the fuel is only about 7%.
Also, with all the sloshing happening in the tank, the fuel will be in the form of the fine emulsion on the fuel pump inlet.

User avatar
Mr.G
42
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:52 pm
Location: Slovakia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

xavier wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:07 pm
What if they had two fuels that don't mix (like oil and water don't mix), with a higher density fuel at the bottom of the tank. Since the density is higher, it tricks the FFM calibrated for the lighter fuel and it allows more mass flow. The heavier fuel gets burned first and the lighter fuel remains for inspection.
Interesting idea, but this would only work for "static" application. During the race, it would mix together. Eventually, it would separate again but will need some time...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
418
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

So doing a tiny bitbif research on these flow meters and the speed of sound..

The FIA, if they hire the appropriate experts, should be able to measure the speeds of sound, possibly DENSITYin the declared fuels and mixtures of them as they flow through the meter. This is possible because the flow meters have that function. The accuracy of this function is of course something else to find out.

When mixing two fluids it is possible that density and speed of sound properties will change. This change can be tabulated. It is hoewer affected by inter molecule associations or molecule dissociations depending on temperature and pressure.

FIA can tabulate this.. But have they bothered to?


Fuel A - density of FIA lower limit
Fuel B - density of FIA upper limit

92% of Fuel A, 8% Fuel B.
New density if for example is 103% more dense than fuel A.

Fuel B was used in practice and qualifying.

Declare fuel A for the race.

Declare 95kg total fuel for the race.

Need 95kg for the race.

Ad 4% extra fuel A. (cheating volume)

Fuel tank..

10kg Fuel B, 94kg Fuel A.

The flow meter only registers at the the denser volume..


Counter point..
If FIA put the right personel in place they can measure the desnity of the fuel "in-situ."
They can measure the speed of spound too.
===================✯✯
============✯✯
====✯✯
LH44

timbo
timbo
116
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:14 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:37 pm
The FIA, if they hire the appropriate experts, should be able to measure the speeds of sound, possibly DENSITYin the declared fuels and mixtures of them as they flow through the meter. This is possible because the flow meters have that function. The accuracy of this function is of course something else to find out.
They can do all of this before the race using something like Anton Paar DMA 5000.
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:37 pm
It is hoewer affected by inter molecule associations or molecule dissociations depending on temperature and pressure.
Once again, within the chemistry permitted by the regs (i.e., mostly hydrocarbon fuel, with only small amount of oxygen and nitrogen-containing compounds, and even less metals) the different fuel blends will behave close to an ideal solution, which means the properties of say 50/50 m/m mixture is right between the initial fuels.
So I don't know where to gain anything.
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:37 pm
The flow meter only registers at the the denser volume..
The flow meters are ultrasonic, they should be able to determine the speed of sound and thus the density, so they should be immune to alterations of density.
If they aren't then I'm sure everybody will be doing this.
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:37 pm
If FIA put the right personel in place they can measure the desnity of the fuel "in-situ."
They can measure the speed of spound too.
They take fuel samples after the race. The density and speed of sound measurement is a routine one.

Yeah, and I raised this point before -- if the "trick" involved something to do with the fuel, why the power advantage was only apparent during Q3 and the first lap of the race?

User avatar
etusch
103
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Hope this is not double post


User avatar
3jawchuck
46
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:57 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

etusch wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:11 pm
Hope this is not double post
https://youtu.be/LS47125tUzk
It is a multiple repost, but from quite a while ago. So whatever, it's a nice find.
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” --Ernest Hemingway

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
15
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

flexcon wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:11 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
flexcon wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:36 pm
I suppose this is how conspiracy’s are a self fulfilling notion.

Ferrari cheating flow sensor so “more” fuel gets past the flow meter in between measure points.

So they could burn 115kg of fuel but sensor only reads 110kg.

It would make sense though.

Not saying I agree!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The fuel sensor have nothing to do with this.

I’m saying when you look to tie the two issues together. Question marks over the fuel flow meter being tricked to allowing more flow between the measuring points.

That is going to put fuel consumption very high if Ferrari do this throughout the race so they could well be over fuelling the car for this very reason.

Talking out of my backside as a thought that’s all



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It was long reported that Ferrari regularly burned 10kg and more of fuel per race than Merc, which was strange to me as fuel usage is a function of "time on throttle" and Ferrari were clearly down the straights faster than Merc. I chalked it up to less energy dense fuel, but cheating the fuel flow sensor makes much more sense.

Woah, didn't realize I was responding to such an old post.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
418
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Spec 2 was to be released in Australia. 20hp gain on preseason engine. Still unknown if this spec 2 is more powerful than the 2019 engine though.
===================✯✯
============✯✯
====✯✯
LH44

erikejw
erikejw
4
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:32 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

A whistleblower? That is extremally unlikely. That is not how the world works, believe me ;)

It's much more likely that Ferrari got their computer systems hacked. By a third party who vacuums up IP capital all over the world, selling to the highest bidder, darknet style. Who then sold the info to one interested team, that team then claimed an "anonymous" whistle blower who felt guilty sent them the data.

The shortlist of teams is, well, very short. Think engine manufacturers.

That means another McLaren saga, but 10x worse. I guess neither FIA nor the owners want to touch that nuke.





Polite wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:34 pm
news from Italy.

According to Leo Turrini, and many others, there was a whristleblower in Ferrari giving tech spec to an other team. Then the team gave those infos (under patent..) to the FIA per the protest: if Ferrari would have been claimed guilty, Ferrari could have taken legal action and win just because those infos (under patent) were given to a competitor violating the patent rules and not to the FIA itself.

So the agreement is aimed at protecting Ferrari patents and possible damages to the FIA, for violation of the patents themselves (Ferrari can act legally against FIA, the whristleblower, the team which have contacts with the whristleblower)

2007 McLaren anyone?

erikejw
erikejw
4
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:32 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

erikejw wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 7:11 am
A whistleblower? That is extremally unlikely. That is not how the world works, believe me ;)

It's much more likely that Ferrari got their computer systems hacked. By a third party who vacuums up IP capital all over the world, selling to the highest bidder, darknet style. Who then sold the info to one interested team, that team then claimed an "anonymous" whistle blower who felt guilty sent them the data.

The shortlist of teams is, well, very short. Think engine manufacturers.

That means another McLaren saga, but 10x worse. I guess neither FIA nor the owners want to touch that nuke.





Polite wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:34 pm
news from Italy.

According to Leo Turrini, and many others, there was a whristleblower in Ferrari giving tech spec to an other team. Then the team gave those infos (under patent..) to the FIA per the protest: if Ferrari would have been claimed guilty, Ferrari could have taken legal action and win just because those infos (under patent) were given to a competitor violating the patent rules and not to the FIA itself.

So the agreement is aimed at protecting Ferrari patents and possible damages to the FIA, for violation of the patents themselves (Ferrari can act legally against FIA, the whristleblower, the team which have contacts with the whristleblower)

2007 McLaren anyone?

rgava
rgava
14
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:15 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

I think there is a big misunderstanding on some of the posters here about what a patent means.
To patent something you have to disclose the technical details about what you are patenting.
So there is no such a thing as one "spygate" case related to patents.
What i see a lot more probable is that the whole information leading to the FIA technical arguments to deem the engine illegal was stolen from Ferrari headquarters in some way and can lead to Ferrari counter suing the FIA.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
583
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

How can Ferrari sue the FIA for actions that they didn't carry out? If someone steals something from you and gives it to the police, you don't sue the police, do you? :roll:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"